Israel confronts flotilla

#226
#226
IPorange said:
See, again I am being asked to provide all the proof, while the opposing viewpoint is to be taken at face value until proven otherwise.

This was what was said by eyewitnesses on neighboring ships on the flotilla. That was in international waters where such a forced boarding is illegal.

According to the Israelis, the people just came at them with sticks and knives when they (illegally) boarded the vessel. The Israelis say they were within their rights to board the vessel because it was cargo intended for Gaza. That would be true, if they were not in international waters.
Click to expand...

Truth is, we don't know exactly what happened. You are claiming this is all Israel's fault but at the same time mocking people defending Israel.

The IDF video certainly shows soldiers being beaten as soon as they land - by gangs of people.

Bottomline, this could have gone down any number of ways. The reactions of those on the flotilla certainly contributed to the result we got.

I'm not about to let the flotilla off the hook simply because this happened in int'l waters.
 
#230
#230
volinbham said:
Truth is, we don't know exactly what happened. You are claiming this is all Israel's fault but at the same time mocking people defending Israel.

The IDF video certainly shows soldiers being beaten as soon as they land - by gangs of people.

Bottomline, this could have gone down any number of ways. The reactions of those on the flotilla certainly contributed to the result we got.

I'm not about to let the flotilla off the hook simply because this happened in int'l waters.
Click to expand...

I am not intending to let them "off the hook," but put yourself in their shoes. They knew where they were and where they were not, and they knew who was boarding them. If you are protesting some human rights issue in China, and are off their coast in international waters and about to get boarded by the Chinese navy, you may choose to assume you'll be fighting for your freedom/life.
 
#231
#231
IPorange said:
I am not intending to let them "off the hook," but put yourself in their shoes. They knew where they were and where they were not, and they knew who was boarding them. If you are protesting some human rights issue in China, and are off their coast in international waters and about to get boarded by the Chinese navy, you may choose to assume you'll be fighting for your freedom/life.
Click to expand...

So the flotilla should have never been there?
 
#232
#232
KB5252 said:
standard cutlery aboard aid ships.
Click to expand...

I saw two knives that couldn't be found in most large kitchens: the really wide curvy one with the big rounded wooden handle, and a knife that may have been a butterfly knife. The vast majority were definitely standard cutlery.
 
#233
#233
OrangeEmpire said:
So the flotilla should have never been there?
Click to expand...

They were tempting their own fate, yes.

When Bruce Willis walked through Harlem in with a "I hate [black people]" poster on his front and back in Diehard 3, he was tempting fate as well. Doesn't make it less wrong when those guys tried to kill him and Samuel L Jackson had to save him.
 
#234
#234
Like I said, Netanyahu needs to get off the David Ben Gurion track...... different time which called for different measures.
 
#235
#235
IPorange said:
I saw two knives that couldn't be found in most large kitchens: the really wide curvy one with the big rounded wooden handle, and a knife that may have been a butterfly knife. The vast majority were definitely standard cutlery.
Click to expand...

Standard or not, soldiers, police or troopers are going to fire.
 
#236
#236
IPorange said:
See, again I am being asked to provide all the proof, while the opposing viewpoint is to be taken at face value until proven otherwise.

No I didn't say that, for some reason you choose to believe the word of those who obviously went their with the agenda to start trouble

This was what was said by eyewitnesses on neighboring ships on the flotilla. That was in international waters where such a forced boarding is illegal.

And the Israeli forces are saying something completely different. You can take the word of those that went to purposefully cause trouble or you can believe the Israeli forces who are like our service men in many ways, they could be covering up for a mistake if one was made and they fired in the heat of the moment but the simple point is how do you decide who to take on their word here? Both have an agenda and reasons to lie.

According to the Israelis, the people just came at them with sticks and knives when they (illegally) boarded the vessel. The Israelis say they were within their rights to board the vessel because it was cargo intended for Gaza. That would be true, if they were not in international waters.
Click to expand...

Again according to the link posted earlier the legality of boarding the ship even in international waters is not as cut and dry as you claim. Specifically because the ships stated mission was to bust the blockade.
 
#237
#237
OrangeEmpire said:
Standard or not, soldiers, police or troopers are going to fire.
Click to expand...

You can't talk about "Rules of Engagement" and ignore the ROE violation of boarding a vessel by force in international waters. The ROE were already off the table as far as those activists were concerned.
 
#238
#238
KB5252 said:
Again according to the link posted earlier the legality of boarding the ship even in international waters is not as cut and dry as you claim. Specifically because the ships stated mission was to bust the blockade.
Click to expand...

Why does the international community overwhelmingly think it is cut and dried?
 
#240
#240
IPorange said:
You can't talk about "Rules of Engagement" and ignore the ROE violation of boarding a vessel by force in international waters. The ROE were already off the table as far as those activists were concerned.
Click to expand...

I have said 7 times the order to go was silly..... once the soldiers were there........ I don't see how any one is surprised by what happened.
 
#241
#241
IPorange said:
I am not intending to let them "off the hook," but put yourself in their shoes. They knew where they were and where they were not, and they knew who was boarding them. If you are protesting some human rights issue in China, and are off their coast in international waters and about to get boarded by the Chinese navy, you may choose to assume you'll be fighting for your freedom/life.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't know that I would think they were doing anything but occupying the boat. I wouldn't assume Israeli commandos were boarding to kill me - especially over this. If they wanted to kill me I would expect the ship to be sunk or gunfire and rockets from the sky.
 
#242
#242
IPorange said:
Why does the international community overwhelmingly think it is cut and dried?
Click to expand...

I just went back and read it again, it appears I did not read it correctly the first time. It was probably not legal in international waters. This will all come out in the independent investigation I'm sure. I'll leave it to those with experience in maritime law to decide.
 
#243
#243
IPorange said:
They were tempting their own fate, yes.

When Bruce Willis walked through Harlem in with a "I hate [black people]" poster on his front and back in Diehard 3, he was tempting fate as well. Doesn't make it less wrong when those guys tried to kill him and Samuel L Jackson had to save him.
Click to expand...

You are making a BIG assumption that the IDF was trying to kill the protesters. My gut suggests they were trying to commandeer the ship. Once attacked it became a melee.
 
#244
#244
IPorange said:
Why does the international community overwhelmingly think it is cut and dried?
Click to expand...

the international community tends to go against Israel on a regular basis plus the fotilla propaganda machine was in full-force (immediately) - kinda makes you wonder if they were planning for a confrontation...nah.
 
#246
#246
Some questions for IP and anyone else totally against Israel on this one:

1. If this had not been international waters would you feel differently?

2. Do you believe IDF boarded with intent to kill anyone?

3. What could Israel do to stop a ship violating the blockade? What are the available options?
 
#247
#247
volinbham said:
You are making a BIG assumption that the IDF was trying to kill the protesters. My gut suggests they were trying to commandeer the ship. Once attacked it became a melee.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that I thought the IDF were out to kill the activists. Obviously they could have just sunk the ship. I was just illustrating that they were definitely asking for trouble, but that didn't make the trouble they found "okay" or just.
 
#249
#249
IPorange said:
I didn't mean to imply that I thought the IDF were out to kill the activists. Obviously they could have just sunk the ship. I was just illustrating that they were definitely asking for trouble, but that didn't make the trouble they found "okay" or just.
Click to expand...

It wasn't "okay" I guess but I'm not with you on the just. It takes two to tango as the old saying goes. There was a series of decisions made by those on the boat that resulted in the outcome.

Israel carries the main share of the blame but once the IDF landed it could have gone many ways. Those on the boat ensured it went the way it did.
 
#250
#250
IPorange said:
Why?
Click to expand...

Beats me I fail to understand the line of thinking many in this world seem to have. Probably along the the same lines of the UN and much of the world see no problem with Iran's thinly veiled nuclear weapon program.

Would Israel have been better off boarding the vessel once it actually reached the blockade? Of course, but if a ship tells you its intentions is to break your blockade, I can completely understand trying to preemptively check everything out. What if the ship is packed with explosives with the intent to ram a navy vessel? The point is nobody thought that ship would be dumb enough to attack the IDF.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top