Israel confronts flotilla

#202
#202
volinbham said:
you can't have it both ways - you have blanket condemnation of Israel for this event then blast people for blanket support of Israel on this event then you say it's complicated.

This incident is complicated as well.
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It's complicated, but only one side brought guns, only one side broke international law, and only one side killed people.


"Blanket support" on one issue seems like a funny phrase.

I am generally sympathetic to Israel. I certainly was with the Hezbollah troubles recently. But this incident was on them. My beef with people in this thread has been that they are willing to look the other way on this because they are our allies. That's blanket support. I am not ignoring the attacks on Israel that the IDF is trying to prevent by the blockade, or saying the blockade as it is outlined is illegal. I'm not ignoring the ridiculous move by the Palestinians to elect Hamas to lead their government. I am saying this incident was wrong, and Israel is culpable.
 
#205
#205
IPorange said:
It's complicated, but only one side brought guns, only one side broke international law, and only one side killed people.


"Blanket support" on one issue seems like a funny phrase.

I am generally sympathetic to Israel. I certainly was with the Hezbollah troubles recently. But this incident was on them. My beef with people in this thread has been that they are willing to look the other way on this because they are our allies. That's blanket support. I am not ignoring the attacks on Israel that the IDF is trying to prevent by the blockade, or saying the blockade as it is outlined is illegal. I'm not ignoring the ridiculous move by the Palestinians to elect Hamas to lead their government. I am saying this incident was wrong, and Israel is culpable.
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I'm confident we agree with you.
 
#207
#207
IPorange said:
What were the activists firing? Spit balls? They didn't have any firearms or weapons aside from kitchen knives on the ship. At all.
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IDF soldiers encountered small arms fire, stun grenades, as well as knives, and blunt objects. Check out the IR video. Call me crazy, but if I attack an armed soldier, whether I think I'm doing whats right or not I expect that soldier to fire back if I fail to kill him.
 
#208
#208
IPorange said:
It's complicated, but only one side brought guns, only one side broke international law, and only one side killed people.


"Blanket support" on one issue seems like a funny phrase.

I am generally sympathetic to Israel. I certainly was with the Hezbollah troubles recently. But this incident was on them. My beef with people in this thread has been that they are willing to look the other way on this because they are our allies. That's blanket support. I am not ignoring the attacks on Israel that the IDF is trying to prevent by the blockade, or saying the blockade as it is outlined is illegal. I'm not ignoring the ridiculous move by the Palestinians to elect Hamas to lead their government. I am saying this incident was wrong, and Israel is culpable.
Click to expand...

:good!:
 
#209
#209
Let say you believe DUI roadblocks are immoral and illegal. You and a group of buddies (15) load up in a van with the intent of busting the roadblock. In fact, you've talked publicly about your plans to do so. As you approach the roadblock you are motioned to the side. You refuse to stop. A cop car chases you and pulls you over. The cops approach the vehicle and you all get out of the van and start beating on the cops.

Are you shocked if they pull guns?
 
#212
#212
IPorange said:
It's complicated, but only one side brought guns, only one side broke international law, and only one side killed people.


"Blanket support" on one issue seems like a funny phrase.

I am generally sympathetic to Israel. I certainly was with the Hezbollah troubles recently. But this incident was on them. My beef with people in this thread has been that they are willing to look the other way on this because they are our allies. That's blanket support. I am not ignoring the attacks on Israel that the IDF is trying to prevent by the blockade, or saying the blockade as it is outlined is illegal. I'm not ignoring the ridiculous move by the Palestinians to elect Hamas to lead their government. I am saying this incident was wrong, and Israel is culpable.
Click to expand...

But you see no culpability on the part of the flotilla or it's participants? None whatsoever?
 
#213
#213
IPorange said:
They got the knives when passengers were being beaten to the deck by soldiers of a foreign power in international water.
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I am telling you what the rules of engagement would be, if your are not cooperating and you knowlingly gain a weapon.......

:hi:
 
#215
#215
IPorange said:
They got the knives when passengers were being beaten to the deck by soldiers of a foreign power in international water.
Click to expand...

Says who? Are we to take the word of one side over the other, if so why?
 
#216
#216
lumberjack4 said:
IDF soldiers encountered small arms fire, stun grenades, as well as knives, and blunt objects. Check out the IR video. Call me crazy, but if I attack an armed soldier, whether I think I'm doing whats right or not I expect that soldier to fire back if I fail to kill him.
Click to expand...

Where are the guns? The IDF didn't find any.

Those stun grenades were Israel's, or so I have heard (I don't know how we could be certain on that).

Again, this happened in international waters when they were forcibly boarded by hostile foreign soldiers. Call me crazy, but you are going to get an unpredictable response when that happens.
 
#217
#217
IPorange said:
They got the knives when passengers were being beaten to the deck by soldiers of a foreign power in international water.
Click to expand...

and the other side of the story is that the violence didn't start until the passengers tried to take the soldiers guns from them
 
#221
#221
KB5252 said:
Says who? Are we to take the word of one side over the other, if so why?
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See, again I am being asked to provide all the proof, while the opposing viewpoint is to be taken at face value until proven otherwise.

This was what was said by eyewitnesses on neighboring ships on the flotilla. That was in international waters where such a forced boarding is illegal.

According to the Israelis, the people just came at them with sticks and knives when they (illegally) boarded the vessel. The Israelis say they were within their rights to board the vessel because it was cargo intended for Gaza. That would be true, if they were not in international waters.
 
#222
#222
IPorange said:
Call me crazy, but you are going to get an unpredictable response when that happens.
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If you set sail with explicit stated purpose of busting a blockade, receive warnings and proceed anyway I'd say your statement applies as well.

It doesn't justify killing or boarding in Int'l waters but the flotilla was hell bent on confrontation. They got it. I have some sympathy but they are not innocent bystanders.
 
#224
#224
volinbham said:
If you set sail with explicit stated purpose of busting a blockade, receive warnings and proceed anyway I'd say your statement applies as well.

It doesn't justify killing or boarding in Int'l waters but the flotilla was hell bent on confrontation. They got it. I have some sympathy but they are not innocent bystanders.
Click to expand...

100 % agree.
 
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