Israel confronts flotilla

#277
#277
IPorange said:
Let's not oversimplify things. Israel is an artifact of WW2 and anti-semitic guilt in the West. That part of the world wasn't a vacuum, and it pissed off a lot of people over there when Palestinians (who nobody likes, really) were displaced into Egypt, Jordan, and other places by the formation of the Jewish State. This is what started the initial conflicts of sixty years ago, and those conflicts are the source of today's anger and resentment by those countries.
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yet that wasn't the reason all it's neighbors immediately invaded and drove to the center once the british left and the day after Israel declared it's statehood

if I recall correctly, I don't remember whether it was egypt, Jordan, or whoever that made the comment, but I'm pretty sure one - if you check an old ny times or wall st journal from back that day - made the declaration of "invading to save the holy land from the Zionist threat" and being tainted by it or something.


I do have to say though, if the US had had the history of relations and attacks with it's neighbors that Israel had, we'd probably be a little quick on the trigger with defense issues also.
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#280
#280
IPorange said:
What other country was formed with no direct historical ancestral nation-state or culture? The vast majority of Israeli Jews moved there when the State of Israel was created. There is no nation on Earth with an origin like the modern state of Israel.

It was this unorthodox engineered transplantation of people that led to the animosity of the rest of the Arab world. Israel was founded for Jews, thus these people hate Jews. Throw in the history of war and territory grabs, and it is pretty obvious why muslims tend to have a very negative take on Israel.
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somewhat right, but I'm not sure how much you might have or have not studied israels state history.

There were though a ton of Jews in Israel pre-statehood during the British occupation. Thats how tel aviv came to be; it was actually a Jewish settlement/city started well before statehood. It actual got to be so much more than they wanted that the British were turning back ships b/c they did not want anymore Jews in the area.

Then of course the British left having the mandate they created - which actually was 2 sections, with israels sliver being pretty thin save around the tel aviv region. The British then left. Israel declared it's statehood.

The day it did this, every country in the area attacked it, under the guises of saving the holy land or "stopping the Zionist threat". Israel not only weathered the attack (after it they all drove pretty deep) but then pushed back the four countries from each side, which would start to lead to the country's current shape eventually....that and the 2 other wars by these factions again, including a war intentionally started on Yom Kippur, because the neighboring countries figured that since the Jews would all be in prayer on their holiest day of the year, they would be unable to repel the attack successfully.


My main point I think I'm getting at though is that, those negative relations with the neighbors - they didn't come from displacement issues or b/c a large flux of Jews came in and pushed everyone out - they were there since the first day of statehood and pretty much have always been there since the state was first declared, maybe since before the Brits said they were going to leave....the whole "Zionist threat" claim they all used
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#282
#282
Saw some video last night showing the people on board this flotilla apparently arming themselves before IDF boarded the vessels. I also saw a member aboard one of these ships toss what looked to be a flash/bang grenade at IDF in small boats as they were preparing to board. These were not peaceful activists, they sought out confrontation and with armed men and unfortunately paid the price. Had Israel waited until they reached their home waters any criticism of them would be unwarranted.
 
#283
#283
KB5252 said:
Saw some video last night showing the people on board this flotilla apparently arming themselves before IDF boarded the vessels. I also saw a member aboard one of these ships toss what looked to be a flash/bang grenade at IDF in small boats as they were preparing to board. These were not peaceful activists, they sought out confrontation and with armed men and unfortunately paid the price. Had Israel waited until they reached their home waters any criticism of them would be unwarranted.
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100% agree with this.
 
#284
#284
1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The local arab nations did not want a jewish state. They had been of that opinion since the UN was proposing the split divide of the post-mandate, the infamous United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine which would have created two states. All the arab nations at the UN General Assembly in 1948 voted down the proposal: the representatives of the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed the UN action and even rejected its authority to involve itself in the entire matter. It was pretty much set or a given that once the British left at the mandate's expiration, the neighbors were going to attack the area - but it was much more due to their not wanting a Jewish state there than really much else

Though IPOrange, there was a change in opinions of the areas between the Ottoman Empire's loss of the land in WWI. It seems though to have come from the hatred/dislike of the British owning lay over the land starting in 1920s. The dislike of the British occupation soon led to both anti-British and what would build to also anti-Jewish sentiments and riots (the Jewish population was growing with Jews fleeing from European persecution from the 1922 onward) since the Jews were also asking the British for Jewish statehood. This led to a series of riots in the 1920s, where the local Arabs rebelled against the British and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly

This of course would lead to the British restricting (in several cases banning) Jewish immigration to the area, but really it seems the seeds of the hatred were sewn during the British occupation, feasibly that the anger at the British rule later became directed at the growing Jew population there as well
 
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#285
#285
My point was that it was the installation of a Jewish State (even if it was indirect, foreign powers made it possible) in their back yard that ticked them off. And yes, I am sure they did speak ill of one of their holiest sites becoming part of a new nation that was 100 % of another religion. That would be threatening. Christianity responded in a similar way.

The bad blood has perpetuated since.
 
#286
#286
the bad blood started when the Romans kicked the Jews out of their traditional homeland and named the territory "Palestine".
 
#287
#287
KB5252 said:
Flotilla Raid Further Frays Turkey-Israel Ties - WSJ.com


This is going to turn into a pr problem for Israel, sadly this is just the response that those responsible for the ships hoped for IMO.


What are some of your thoughts on the issue?
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2010-06-04-digest-cartoon.jpg
 
#288
#288
IPorange said:
My point was that it was the installation of a Jewish State (even if it was indirect, foreign powers made it possible) in their back yard that ticked them off. And yes, I am sure they did speak ill of one of their holiest sites becoming part of a new nation that was 100 % of another religion. That would be threatening. Christianity responded in a similar way.

The bad blood has perpetuated since.
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Well not exactly, it was the British rule over the land that pissed everyone off but they began to direct it at the growing Jewish population there as well, as it turned into a more or less "anyone now of their religion"...and yes it grew from there; my point being though it wasnt "hi we're making a jewish state here bye" it was "we're (British) owning this area, and after we realize how our attempts at colonization fail due to local unrest, we're setting up two states here when we leave"

You need to see the map though of what they set up if you havent File:UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;
because save Tel Aviv, the Jewish State didn't own any of the major holy sites. Israel didn't come to own those until - after their statehood declaration - Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq invaded and tried to conquer the whole area.

The bad blood started with the British occupation in 1922, then grew to eventually what it's at now; they were all extremely upset that the British (not their own people) were in charge of the area for at least a full generation. Like any group, hatred doesn't disappear after that long, it just gets redirected at someone else which is where it went straight, immediately at the Jewish State once the more powerful British army left.

As for the neighbors though, it was simply just "A Jewish State? (even if it's one that's only along the west coast and the Golan Heights?) F--- that!" and they all invaded immediately.

My main point earlier was, the neighbors hatred isnt because "oh the palestinian's were displaced" like you claimed earlier, it was because the left half was a jewish state and that's why they attacked (hence, "stop the Zionist threat"). The neighbors hate them because theyre Jewish and their history in interactions with the region heavily shows that, not having to do with Gaza and West Bank.
 

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#289
#289
There's another ship expected to reach Israeli waters early tomorrow morning, at least the people on this ship say they won't offer resistance.
 
#293
#293
KB5252 said:
There's another ship expected to reach Israeli waters early tomorrow morning, at least the people on this ship say they won't offer resistance.
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for the most part, the people on the recent flotilla didn't offer resistance either. Resistance only happened on the cruise ship that was manned by thugs from the Turkish IHH and others sympathetic with Hamas and Al Queda.
 
#294
#294
TrueOrange said:
Well not exactly, it was the British rule over the land that pissed everyone off but they began to direct it at the growing Jewish population there as well, as it turned into a more or less "anyone now of their religion"...and yes it grew from there; my point being though it wasnt "hi we're making a jewish state here bye" it was "we're (British) owning this area, and after we realize how our attempts at colonization fail due to local unrest, we're setting up two states here when we leave"

You need to see the map though of what they set up if you havent File:UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;
because save Tel Aviv, the Jewish State didn't own any of the major holy sites. Israel didn't come to own those until - after their statehood declaration - Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq invaded and tried to conquer the whole area.

The bad blood started with the British occupation in 1922, then grew to eventually what it's at now; they were all extremely upset that the British (not their own people) were in charge of the area for at least a full generation. Like any group, hatred doesn't disappear after that long, it just gets redirected at someone else which is where it went straight, immediately at the Jewish State once the more powerful British army left.

As for the neighbors though, it was simply just "A Jewish State? (even if it's one that's only along the west coast and the Golan Heights?) F--- that!" and they all invaded immediately.

My main point earlier was, the neighbors hatred isnt because "oh the palestinian's were displaced" like you claimed earlier, it was because the left half was a jewish state and that's why they attacked (hence, "stop the Zionist threat"). The neighbors hate them because theyre Jewish and their history in interactions with the region heavily shows that, not having to do with Gaza and West Bank.
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Can you point me to where I said the hatred stems from Palestinians being displaced?

I feel like you are marginalizing my posts with "not exactly", and then giving rich details to the history that in no way contradicts what I said. If anything, you are supporting my original point of "Muslims and Jews haven't always bloodily feuded."
 
#295
#295
TrueOrange said:
somewhat right, but I'm not sure how much you might have or have not studied israels state history.


My main point I think I'm getting at though is that, those negative relations with the neighbors - they didn't come from displacement issues or b/c a large flux of Jews came in and pushed everyone out - they were there since the first day of statehood and pretty much have always been there since the state was first declared, maybe since before the Brits said they were going to leave....the whole "Zionist threat" claim they all used
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The real problem arose with the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood that was behind several Jew masacres in the 1920s and 30s.

They went on to form a much larger coalition of islamo/fascists that was defeated militarily at least during WWII.

The goals of the muslim brotherhood remain the same, elimination of the state of Israel, extermination of all Jews, and eventual conquest of every country of the world so that islam will rule politically, economically, legally and religiously to be administered through an islamic caliphate system.

In Turkey we see a political movement arrising based on the old Ottoman empire in a country that still denies the genocide of about 2 million Armenians and the approximately 1 million Greek and 1 million Assyrian civilians killed is never even mentioned.

Turkey has a mosque for every 350 citizens but a hospital only for every 60,000 citizens.

Fethullah Gulen Schools Infiltrating the U.S.? | Red County

What’s more, other evidence suggests that Gulen’s ultimate goal may well be the resurrection of the Ottoman Empire so as to reinstate the Islamic Caliph.
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For those who would overlook the nexus between islam and fascism, Iran is only an English version for the word Ayran and indeed the Perisans (most Iranians) consider themselves to be the original members of the Ayran race and indeed superior to all other races.

What do the religious and political leaders of Iran say today?? There was no genocide of Jews in WWII and furthermore call for the elimination of Israel and the extermination of all Jews.

This dovetails with a recent statement by a Muslim Brotherhood leader; "Hitler had the right idea, he just didn't go far enough."
 
#297
#297
gsvol said:
The real problem arose with the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood that was behind several Jew masacres in the 1920s and 30s.

They went on to form a much larger coalition of islamo/fascists that was defeated militarily at least during WWII.

The goals of the muslim brotherhood remain the same, elimination of the state of Israel, extermination of all Jews, and eventual conquest of every country of the world so that islam will rule politically, economically, legally and religiously to be administered through an islamic caliphate system.

In Turkey we see a political movement arrising based on the old Ottoman empire in a country that still denies the genocide of about 2 million Armenians and the approximately 1 million Greek and 1 million Assyrian civilians killed is never even mentioned.

Turkey has a mosque for every 350 citizens but a hospital only for every 60,000 citizens.

Fethullah Gulen Schools Infiltrating the U.S.? | Red County



For those who would overlook the nexus between islam and fascism, Iran is only an English version for the word Ayran and indeed the Perisans (most Iranians) consider themselves to be the original members of the Ayran race and indeed superior to all other races.

What do the religious and political leaders of Iran say today?? There was no genocide of Jews in WWII and furthermore call for the elimination of Israel and the extermination of all Jews.

This dovetails with a recent statement by a Muslim Brotherhood leader; "Hitler had the right idea, he just didn't go far enough."
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I want to put you on ignore. I just can't. You're too entertaining.... :crazy:
 
#298
#298
How does Helen Thomas arrive at the conclusion the Jewish native lands were Poland and Germany? I guess she believes she should be sent back to (name a country) because we occupy lands that do not belong to us. What an idiot!
 
#299
#299
BoseefusTheVol said:
I want to put you on ignore. I just can't. You're too entertaining.... :crazy:
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Yes, and you can make all the cutsey little snide remarks you want but you cannot rebut the content of my post.

I would say you're entertaing youself except you are as boring as a box of rocks, oh wait, even more so, you're a complete a waste of time.
 
#300
#300
IPorange said:
Can you point me to where I said the hatred stems from Palestinians being displaced?

I feel like you are marginalizing my posts with "not exactly", and then giving rich details to the history that in no way contradicts what I said. If anything, you are supporting my original point of "Muslims and Jews haven't always bloodily feuded."
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The not exactly isn't meant to marginalize anyone. When I post like that, it's usually a way I go about saying "you're making good points, but I'm not sure you're entirely correct." I more discuss than argue...um, I guess think of it as I'm not yelling, like some people's messages on boards look like, but rather sitting and discussing

I'm guessing then that it was my misreading of the bold line; perhaps I thought you were talking about the Palestinians there when you were talking about the Jews

IPorange said:
What other country was formed with no direct historical ancestral nation-state or culture? The vast majority of Israeli Jews moved there when the State of Israel was created. There is no nation on Earth with an origin like the modern state of Israel.

It was this unorthodox engineered transplantation of people that led to the animosity of the rest of the Arab world. Israel was founded for Jews, thus these people hate Jews. Throw in the history of war and territory grabs, and it is pretty obvious why muslims tend to have a very negative take on Israel.
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If that's the case, then it's a simple misunderstanding and I apologize.

Though I think from everything I've been reading, that it was relations during the British Mandate that started and caused all the ill wills, violence, and later developed anger and hatred rather than the creation of the actual state itself. Maybe that the anymosities were there before the state itself actually formed, amd before a mass rush of Jews came to Israel around the 40s in WWII

(but not that they're fighting b/c they hated each other for ever and ever, I'm very aware of the history with Jews living in Muslim middle east countries and in Muslim Spain as well as how the laws were set up)
 
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