It's a whole new ballgame: 2008 New York Yankees Thread

#126
#126
All right, let's put it this way:

2004 -- I don't know how many innings he pitched in 2004 before transferring to UNL, but I see from Wikipedia that he pitched four complete games at Nebraska-Whatever. So presumably he pitched a lot.

2005 -- 119 innings at UNL.

2006 -- 89 innings at UNL.

2007 -- 88 innings in the minors + 24 in NY = 112 innings

So why wouldn't you expect him to be able to move up to 150 innings now that he's almost 23 years old? He was a full-time starter throughout his college career and in the minors, so clearly he's used to throwing more than 30 pitches at a shot. He's done so for four years in a row. So now that he's in the majors, why does he suddenly have to start out at 35-40 pitches and have it slowly increased as though he's never done this before? He's been a starting pitcher for FOUR YEARS prior to this year.

I've never seen a top starting prospect babied like this. Either the Yankees are just being dumb about it or there is something about Chamberlain that makes them think that he can't handle a starter's workload.
 
#127
#127
I think its more of the fact that he needs to get his arm strength back up to what a starter throws after a year of his muscle memory getting used to a significantly smaller workload.

After this outing he will go up to 55-60, then 4 days later to 75, and after that he will be about where we want him.

And in little over a month they will have him set to start and they never had to a) use an option (not that it would matter) and b) keep him up with the Yanks and still have him give us valuable innings.

I think you're overthinking the situation.
 
#128
#128
UTLCA said:
I think you're overthinking the situation.
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I do too. Pitching in college is different than the majors. Also you'd be looking at increasing his workload by 70% from the previous two years. That seems like quite a stretch to me.
 
#129
#129
UTLCA said:
I think you're overthinking the situation.
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Not really. As I said, if you draw up any plausible list of the best 30 starters from the last 30 years, I'd bet almost all of them went right into the rotation almost immediately. But not Chamberlain. Any other team who had a prospect like him who had been seasoned with 24 ML innings last year would happily pencil him right into the rotation this year. But not the Yankees -- they'd rather keep running withered old guys like Mussina and Pettitte out there. And that mentality is why, despite their bloated payroll, they haven't won anything in this decade.
 
#130
#130
What I mean to say is that I think the Yankees are the ones overthinking it. He's a starter; he's always been a starter. He's not 18 like Dwight Gooden was when the Mets burned through his arm; put him in the rotation and put him on a pitch count. This drama over "beginning the process of transitioning him into a starting role" is ridiculous.
 
#131
#131
Vercingetorix said:
Not really. As I said, if you draw up any plausible list of the best 30 starters from the last 30 years, I'd bet almost all of them went right into the rotation almost immediately. But not Chamberlain. Any other team who had a prospect like him who had been seasoned with 24 ML innings last year would happily pencil him right into the rotation this year. But not the Yankees -- they'd rather keep running withered old guys like Mussina and Pettitte out there. And that mentality is why, despite their bloated payroll, they haven't won anything in this decade.
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the yankees love their 1-2 closing punch. Jaba fit that role perfectly. You don't mess with a good thing unless you have to. Right now the yankees have to because their starting pitching stinks. You haven't provided me with any information that would make me comfortable with increasing anyone's workload like that and having it be easy. How in the world can you associate 24 innings of relief appearances last year and being ready to be a full time starter?
 
#132
#132
Well in most situations, Joba would have spring training to "transition him into a starting role", and it wouldn't be in the middle of a period when the Yankees are struggling to find some consistency in order to stay afloat in the early playoff picture.
 
#133
#133
for all your stats and figures, how many pitchers are rushed into starting roles only to flounder? I would bet that number is very high
 
#134
#134
For the record, I don't think Hughes and Kennedy were necessarily rushed into starters' roles...both had great years last year (Hughes' numbers are a bit misleading), and their struggles have come after an offseason in which they had plenty of time to prepare for spots in the rotation they knew they had.
 
#135
#135
volfanbill said:
How in the world can you associate 24 innings of relief appearances last year and being ready to be a full time starter?
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He pitched over 100 innings and started 15 games last year. How is that not a workload appropriate for somebody to move into a starting role the next year? Work in the minors is still work, as far as pitch counts, stress on the arm, etc.

volfanbill said:
for all your stats and figures, how many pitchers are rushed into starting roles only to flounder? I would bet that number is very high
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If you're going by pitchers in general, then sure -- most pitchers flounder because most pitchers aren't very good. I'm talking about Grade-A, Five Star pitching prospects, which if you believe the hype around Chamberlain, he is. Those guys typically go right into the rotation.

A counter-example: Tim Lincecum in SF pitched even fewer minor-league innnings (63), but went right into the starting rotation in SF and started 24 games last year. He only pitched 146 innings, so obviously the Giants were keeping tabs on his pitch count. Clearly he's been successful. What makes Chamberlain so much more fragile than Lincecum?
 
#136
#136
Vercingetorix said:
He pitched over 100 innings and started 15 games last year. How is that not a workload appropriate for somebody to move into a starting role the next year? Work in the minors is still work, as far as pitch counts, stress on the arm, etc.



If you're going by pitchers in general, then sure -- most pitchers flounder because most pitchers aren't very good. I'm talking about Grade-A, Five Star pitching prospects, which if you believe the hype around Chamberlain, he is. Those guys typically go right into the rotation.
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I think that's our problem. I see way too many pitchers brought up too quickly and asked to do too much too quickly and that's why they flounder.

As for the 24 innings, you acted as if 24 Major League innings made him seasoned. I maintain that 24 innings means you've got about 50 more innings left to sit and marinade before you're officially seasoned.
 
#137
#137
volfanbill said:
I think that's our problem. I see way too many pitchers brought up too quickly and asked to do too much too quickly and that's why they flounder.
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With ordinary pitchers, I completely agree. That's why over in the Braves thread I'm talking about trading for the ghost of Greg Maddux -- Jo-jo Reyes is a good prospect, but I just think it's way too early to throw him out there to the wolves in what is shaping up to be a pennant race. Not with the rest of the staff around him in such disarray, too. Chamberlain is not supposed to be an ordinary pitcher, though.

As for the 24 innings, you acted as if 24 Major League innings made him seasoned. I maintain that 24 innings means you've got about 50 more innings left to sit and marinade before you're officially seasoned.
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See, I don't just see the 24 innings. When I look at Chamberlain's resume, I see a guy who's been a very successful starter at every level. Whom the scouts regard as a can't-miss prospect. Who, after spending all of 2007 starting in the minors, came up and pitched 24 dominant relief innings in a pennant race, proving that he's ready to face major league hitters. The clear next step IMO is to stick him at the back end of the rotation and limit his innings, not to change up what he's been doing for the last four years and ask him to start setting up Mariano Rivera.

As I said, I was more interested in the way that the Yankees were passing over their great young prospect in favor of the fossils Mussina and Pettitte than in Chamberlain himself. Though that may have more to do with the sunk costs of their enormous contracts than anything else, I guess.
 
#138
#138
since we know your feelings on Joba Vercin and I'm not sure I've ever seen you in the Reds thread, I'm bringing this up here.

How do you feel the Reds handled Jay Bruce? To me it seemed obvious he should've been brought up weeks ago, yet they have let him just sit in Louisville. Surely you consider this coddling and babying him as well?
 
#139
#139
volfanbill said:
since we know your feelings on Joba Vercin and I'm not sure I've ever seen you in the Reds thread, I'm bringing this up here.

How do you feel the Reds handled Jay Bruce? To me it seemed obvious he should've been brought up weeks ago, yet they have let him just sit in Louisville. Surely you consider this coddling and babying him as well?
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They might have coddled him a little this year, mostly because they wanted to avoid Super 2 status, but before that he wasn't coddled at all. He skyrocketed up 3 levels last year alone and reached the majors this year ever bit of 21 and a month or 2 old.

I agree with Vercingetorix, Joba has thrown more than or nearly 100 innings for the last 4 years and he is more mature now than ever. He should be able to get 150 innings now with the kind of frame he has. And either way he is going to take some lumps as a starter so go ahead and let him take them while he is still getting used to becoming a starter in the majors.
 
#140
#140
if worrying about him being able to file for arbitration was the only reason they didn't bring him up, it's blatantly obvious to me the Reds have no concern for winning the Central or anything else for that matter. He easily could've made the opening day roster, and he definitely should've been called up by the end of April.
 
#141
#141
volfanbill said:
if worrying about him being able to file for arbitration was the only reason they didn't bring him up, it's blatantly obvious to me the Reds have no concern for winning the Central or anything else for that matter. He easily could've made the opening day roster, and he definitely should've been called up by the end of April.
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I don't really think the Reds had a shot on it either way. The defense and the bullpen blow and the starting pitching is was to inconsistent. The rest of this year, the main goal is for Walt Jocketty to fix Wayne Krivsky's mess that he made.
 
#142
#142
I guess. I still think the starting pitching is solid enough and you have the players that could put up good enough offensive numbers to compete in the Central.
 
#143
#143
volfanbill said:
I guess. I still think the starting pitching is solid enough and you have the players that could put up good enough offensive numbers to compete in the Central.
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I did to at the beginning of the year but after watching this team for two months there is no way in hell barring a huge move (which could happen w/ prospects like Homer Bailey, Drew Stubbs, Daryl Thompson in the farm system).

The offense is to streaky. The Reds have the worst defensive team in the majors and are last in all defensive categories. They have one above average defender on the field. As of right now Jerry Hairston Jr. is the SS and he is the worst defensive SS I have ever seen. The worst defensive outfield in the history of baseball with Dunn-Whoever-Griffey. A terrible pen consisting of studs like David Weathers, Todd Coffey, Josh Fogg, Mike Lincoln, and Kent Merker.

Harang and Volquez are studs. Cueto and Arroyo are good but very inconsistent. Belisle is lucky to have an ERA under 2398671903409874.013.

Then there is the whole Dusty Baker as the manager thing but I'm not going to get into that right now.

Its just a bad baseball team right now.It does have a lot of really damn talented young guys but it's just not going to happen this year.
 
#144
#144
agree to disagree (except on Baker).

Back to Joba though, who do you trust in the Yanks pen to get you through the 6th, 7th and 8th once Joba hits 80 pitches? Ramirez and that's about it. There's too many things to go wrong with just pushing him out there. If KC did it, it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but it's different in NY.
 
#145
#145
I don't know why people can't understand the fact that you don't go from throwing 15 pitches for 3 months to all of a sudden throwing 90-100.

They arent worried about him, they just dont want to blow his arm out and force him to over extend himself without getting his arm used to a starters workload.

He hasn't pitched 100 pitches since early 2007. Give him 3 weeks and he'll be ready.

Now when it comes to our bullpen, Edwar Ramirez is the only pitcher capable of not getting shelled 1 out of every 2 times he goes out.

The Yankees are looking heavily within their farm system for another arm for the pen right now.
 
#147
#147
volfanbill said:
since we know your feelings on Joba Vercin and I'm not sure I've ever seen you in the Reds thread, I'm bringing this up here.

How do you feel the Reds handled Jay Bruce? To me it seemed obvious he should've been brought up weeks ago, yet they have let him just sit in Louisville. Surely you consider this coddling and babying him as well?
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No idea why Bruce didn't come up earlier; it looked pretty obvious last year that he was ready, and he was by far a better option than having Corey Patterson in the outfield every day. The way the Reds have struggled some this year, there sure wasn't any reason not to bring him up earlier, especially since there isn't really the injury risk with a position player that there is a starter. I'm not going to say he was being babied, though, because VKB is right -- with Dusty Baker as the manager, no way Bruce had a shot at a major league job in spring training. Jocketty probably had to ram this one down Baker's throat even now.
 
#148
#148
UTLCA said:
I don't know why people can't understand the fact that you don't go from throwing 15 pitches for 3 months to all of a sudden throwing 90-100.

They arent worried about him, they just dont want to blow his arm out and force him to over extend himself without getting his arm used to a starters workload.

He hasn't pitched 100 pitches since early 2007. Give him 3 weeks and he'll be ready.
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I am not sneering at the fact that the has to work up to throwing 90 pitches at this point in the season; I'm sneering at the fact that that didn't happen in spring training. What else did the Yankees need to see from him to convince them that he was ready for the rotation?
 
#149
#149
That is understandable.

Basically they were waiting to see how Hughes and Kennedy were going to perform until they would make a decision on Joba,

Now, both Kennedy and Hughes are on the DL and the rotation is in shambles.

And yet I still have hope. I do not know what has made me so incredibly delirious.
 
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