I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

[Vol8188]

If I was speaking with a medical or other professional it would be fetus.
In the English language as far as I know a child is older than an infant and not yet an adolescent.
I am neither all in on the right nor on the left. I try to look at issues case by case.

Really? So when you go to the doctor with a pregnant woman you’d talk about the “fetus”?

Or do you imagine an OB tells the mother “your fetus looks great, very healthy”

It seems like the use of the term fetus is a bait and switch tactic designed to dehumanize the act, given that throughout history we’ve stated a woman is “with child” not “with fetus”.

 

[Vol8188]

I don’t know what magic you possess, but somehow your telepathy has nailed down my biggest political motivation: eagle and turtle eggs. All of us “guys” are creating a mass conspiracy to imprison you “guys” because we all know how much you love smashing eagle eggs.

I’m still waiting for you to tell me how it’s inconsistent for me to admit (as everyone should) that a separate human life exists from conception?

Also curious what “religious views” I’ve stated and if you ever worked out how you would legislate abortion?

 

[creekdipper]

OHvol40, in two different posts over the past day, you have mentioned "life outside the wound." Is this just some weird typo that you are not catching when proofreading, or is it some kind of Freudian slip?

 

[OHvol40]

I’m still waiting for you to tell me how it’s inconsistent for me to admit (as everyone should) that a separate human life exists from conception?

Also curious what “religious views” I’ve stated and if you ever worked out how you would legislate abortion?

I wish you luck advocating for the murder prosecution of every guy that has pleasured himself since, by your criteria, sperm is human life. Stick to your guns, I’m sure it will be a fruitful venture.

 

[Vol8188]

I wish you luck advocating for the murder prosecution of every guy that has pleasured himself since, by your criteria, sperm is human life. Stick to your guns, I’m sure it will be a fruitful venture.

Sperm is not alive for the same reason a virus is not alive. It lacks the ability to replicate. Either you're not a medical provider or you've put no thought into this. Do we agree after conception that is a separate life?

You're making weird/week 3rd grade arguments. Falsely proclaiming others are hiding behind religion, proclaiming masturbation is genocide, etc. I really think you've put 0 thought into any of this. This could be good for you if you continue to engage.

Even falsely pretending I want to prosecute people for killing a newly fertilized zygote. You're not doing great here.

So back to the question. Does life start at conception? If not why?

 

[creekdipper]

I wish you luck advocating for the murder prosecution of every guy that has pleasured himself since, by your criteria, sperm is human life. Stick to your guns, I’m sure it will be a fruitful venture.

I'm certain that most people, even those without your extensive medical experience, recognize that there are no documented cases of sperm on its own developing into a human being despite the length of the gestation period.

 

[EasternVol]

Really? So when you go to the doctor with a pregnant woman you’d talk about the “fetus”?

Or do you imagine an OB tells the mother “your fetus looks great, very healthy”

It seems like the use of the term fetus is a bait and switch tactic designed to dehumanize the act, given that throughout history we’ve stated a woman is “with child” not “with fetus”.

It's a simple matter of using the applicable noun; there's no bait and switch.

 

[creekdipper]

What’s the difference between an intubated patient and a viable fetus to you? I see both as murder. You apparently believe both are wrong but only one should be a crime.

Why?

It's not clear that he thinks either should be a crime even if both organisms are healthy and flourishing otherwise. A "thing" in a coma is not a person if "it" cannot survive without external assistance. Maybe it was "formerly human" with the "potential" of once again becoming human life upon recovery. In is present state, it's just "a clump of cells."

 

[creekdipper]

It's a simple matter of using the applicable noun; there's no bait and switch.

It is a bait and switch if one places different values of worth depending upon the terminology. Is a baby more valuable than a fetus? Is a toddler who can feed himself worth more than a baby, or a teen who can mow the lawn worth more than the toddler, or the adult who can generate revenue to pay the bills worth more than the adolescent?

They all represent various stages of human development. Life is a continuum.

 

[EasternVol]

It is a bait and switch if one places different values of worth depending upon the terminology. Is a baby more valuable than a fetus? Is a toddler who can feed himself worth more than a baby, or a teen who can mow the lawn worth more than the toddler, or the adult who can generate revenue to pay the bills worth more than the adolescent?

They all represent various stages of human development. Life is a continuum.

Arguing that a fetus is a child is like arguing that an effeminate male is a woman. Some people may look at them as the same, and want them to be the same. But they're not the same.

 

[creekdipper]

Arguing that a fetus is a child is like arguing that an effeminate male is a woman. Some people may look at them as the same, and want them to be the same. But they're not the same.

That depends upon your definition of "child."

Does the fetus have parents? If so, then the fetus is their unborn child.

It's just semantics. We may say, "You're going to be a dad" (when the child is born), but in truth, the male is already the biological father. He just can't play catch with his child for awhile.

Likewise, we may tell the female that she's "going to be a mother" when in fact she is already nurturing her child.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Sooooo, how many people have changed their opinions on abortion as a result of this thread so far?

 

[EasternVol]

That depends upon your definition of "child."

Does the fetus have parents? If so, then the fetus is their unborn child.

It's just semantics. We may say, "You're going to be a dad" (when the child is born), but in truth, the male is already the biological father. He just can't play catch with his child for awhile.

Likewise, we may tell the female that she's "going to be a mother" when in fact she is already nurturing her child.

Yes it depends on the definition and so is a matter of semantics.

 

[Vol8188]

It's a simple matter of using the applicable noun; there's no bait and switch.

Both nouns are applicable. If a pregnant woman goes to a doctor he doesn’t talk to her about her “fetus”. Do you believe the doctor is being disingenuous when he says “child” or “baby”?

 

[EasternVol]

Both nouns are applicable. If a pregnant woman goes to a doctor he doesn’t talk to her about her “fetus”. Do you believe the doctor is being disingenuous when he says “child” or “baby”?

Some doctors say fetus and some say child or use another term. I doubt doctors are being disingenuous when they use the terms they do. But that doesn't change the definition. I wouldn't consider myself a father in case of miscarriage. Child indicates the fetus has completed childbirth (there's a clue) if we stick to definition. A fetus is potentially a child but hasn't gotten there yet.

 

[Vol8188]

Some doctors say fetus and some say child or use another term. I doubt doctors are being disingenuous when they use the terms they do. But that doesn't change the definition. I wouldn't consider myself a father in case of miscarriage. Child indicates the fetus has completed childbirth (there's a clue) if we stick to definition. A fetus is potentially a child but hasn't gotten there yet.

Potentially a child? Seems it’s definitely a human child. You can argue it shoudl have less protections than other human children, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a human child.

So just like when your doctor says child, they’re not being disingenuous; the same is true for those who oppose abortion. You can’t proclaim it’s some terrible categorical error only when people you disagree with make the statement

 

[OrangeTsar]

What??? That's a nonsensical take.

I think that if a state legalizes slavery companies, organizations, groups, etc. should and would refuse to do business with that state.
Don't you?

So when do American companies stop doing business with China? Looking at YOU Disney, Apple, and Nike

 

[OHvol40]

Sooooo, how many people have changed their opinions on abortion as a result of this thread so far?

Hearts and minds

 

[EasternVol]

Both nouns are applicable. If a pregnant woman goes to a doctor he doesn’t talk to her about her “fetus”. Do you believe the doctor is being disingenuous when he says “child” or “baby”?

Some doctors say fetus and some say child or use another term. I doubt doctors are being disingenuous when they use the terms they do. But that doesn't change the definition. I wouldn't consider myself a father in case of miscarriage. Child indicates the fetus has completed childbirth (there's a clue) if we stick to definition. A fetus is potentially a child but hasn't gotten there yet.

Potentially a child? Seems it’s definitely a human child. You can argue it shoudl have less protections than other human children, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a human child.

So just like when your doctor says child, they’re not being disingenuous; the same is true for those who oppose abortion. You can’t proclaim it’s some terrible categorical error only when people you disagree with make the statement

You're dead set, I see that. Just out of curiosity, at what stage of development do you consider a fetus to be a child?

 

[Vol8188]

Some doctors say fetus and some say child or use another term. I doubt doctors are being disingenuous when they use the terms they do. But that doesn't change the definition. I wouldn't consider myself a father in case of miscarriage. Child indicates the fetus has completed childbirth (there's a clue) if we stick to definition. A fetus is potentially a child but hasn't gotten there yet.

You're dead set, I see that. Just out of curiosity, at what stage of development do you consider a fetus to be a child?

Who’s definition? Seems you want us to stick to your definition. And I’ve never heard a doctor use anything other than child when speaking to a pregnant woman. I could see fetus used in an abortion clinic, otherwise you’re going to hear a doctor say child/baby.

Child isn’t a term for stage but rather a broad category encompassing neonates, toddlers, fetuses, etc.

 

[EasternVol]

Who’s definition? Seems you want us to stick to your definition. And I’ve never heard a doctor use anything other than child when speaking to a pregnant woman. I could see fetus used in an abortion clinic, otherwise you’re going to hear a doctor say child/baby.

Child isn’t a term for stage but rather a broad category encompassing neonates, toddlers, fetuses, etc.

If you don't want to answer then of course that's up to you, but I was asking how many days / weeks after fertilization do you consider the developing fetus to be a child.

 

[C-south]

If you don't want to answer then of course that's up to you, but I was asking how many days / weeks after fertilization do you consider the developing fetus to be a child.

Why is it if someone murders a pregnant woman that they are charged with 2 murders?

 

[EasternVol]

Why is it if someone murders a pregnant woman that they are charged with 2 murders?

That's a fairly new thing, and I see it as political pandering by some state legislatures.

 

[Rickyvol77]

That's a fairly new thing, and I see it as political pandering by some state legislatures.

It’s not new or pandering.

 

[Vol8188]

If you don't want to answer then of course that's up to you, but I was asking how many days / weeks after fertilization do you consider the developing fetus to be a child.

Once again child is a broad category. It would encompass from fertilization on. Terms like zygote or fetus are more specific to time frame. The same with terms like neonate, toddler, teen, etc.

Child is a broad category for all of those