I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

#601
#601
luthervol said:
Not caring about rape victims?.........what a pathetically stupid accusation (so much so that it negates pretty much everything you have to say)

You can claim as long as you wish that a zygote is a separate human, but most will continue to consider it an absurd position.
The dna in a cell from my earlobe can be altered - it would not become a separate person.
The dna in identical twins is identical but they are not one individual.
Unique DNA does not equal unique individual. Identical twins are unique even though they share the same dna.
When eggs are fertilized in test tubes - a unique human has not been created.
If you believe that a zygote is a unique separate human, and should be viewed the same as a 6 month old fetus or a 6 year old child, then you should be more concerned with the 75% of zygotes which never reach the 6 week point of development.
You should be crying over the billions of humans lost that we were never even aware of. Your focus should be less on abortion and more on what can be done to reduce that 75% number to 60%, or 50% or 10%.
Your position, actions, and feigned indignation are absurdly inconsistent.
Click to expand...

Who said a zygote and a 6 month old infant are equivalent? Seems like you’re fighting windmills. They’re both equally human, yes.
 
#606
#606
luthervol said:
Not caring about rape victims?.........what a pathetically stupid accusation (so much so that it negates pretty much everything you have to say)

You can claim as long as you wish that a zygote is a separate human, but most will continue to consider it an absurd position.
The dna in a cell from my earlobe can be altered - it would not become a separate person.
The dna in identical twins is identical but they are not one individual.
Unique DNA does not equal unique individual. Identical twins are unique even though they share the same dna.
When eggs are fertilized in test tubes - a unique human has not been created.
If you believe that a zygote is a unique separate human, and should be viewed the same as a 6 month old fetus or a 6 year old child, then you should be more concerned with the 75% of zygotes which never reach the 6 week point of development.
You should be crying over the billions of humans lost that we were never even aware of. Your focus should be less on abortion and more on what can be done to reduce that 75% number to 60%, or 50% or 10%.
Your position, actions, and feigned indignation are absurdly inconsistent.
Click to expand...
You calling things absurd doesn't make it so. You brought them up as some crux. A red herring from your actual position to try to make yourself appear just when you are not. The absurdity is you acting like it mattered to your position. Come to find out, you don't consider human life an actual life until it is out of the womb. The absurdity is your inconsistent, incoherent argument to justify killing babies.

You want to call things absurd while conflating abortion and zygotes naturally not making it to the next stage? Are you serious?

When an egg is fertilized in a test tube, yes that is just as human. The book Brave New World is not an instructional novel, luth. a baby from a test tube doesn't make them a delta and less human. You gonna tell us all to take a Soma, Ford?

There is no inconsistency on my end. Unique DNA makes it its own being. Your point on twins is incredibly dumb and doesn't make the point you think it makes.
 
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#610
#610
luthervol said:
It could.
Click to expand...

How many ears have became separate people in human history?

I’ll wait….

Meanwhile every person ever started life as a zygote. Surely you can see why one has more value than the other
 
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#612
#612
Vol8188 said:
Who said a zygote and a 6 month old infant are equivalent? Seems like you’re fighting windmills. They’re both equally human, yes.
Click to expand...
Trust science is the motto by the left. Can't pick and choose, once sperm hits egg science is created. Pretty basic stuff. More evidence and case studies of 7 billion to prove it worked better than 6 feet and paper mask.
 
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#613
#613
utvols88 said:
You calling things absurd doesn't make it so. You brought them up as some crux. A red herring from your actual position to try to make yourself appear just when you are not. The absurdity is you acting like it mattered to your position. Come to find out, you don't consider human life an actual life until it is out of the womb. The absurdity is your inconsistent, incoherent argument to justify killing babies.

You want to call things absurd while conflating abortion and zygotes naturally not making it to the next stage? Are you serious?

When an egg is fertilized in a test tube, yes that is just as human. The book Brave New World is not an instructional novel, luth. a baby from a test tube doesn't make them a delta and less human. You gonna tell us all to take a Soma, Ford?

There is no inconsistency on my end. Unique DNA makes it its own being. Your point on twins is incredibly dumb and doesn't make the point you think it makes.
Click to expand...
No crux, no red herring.....simply an issue to be considered.
I view claiming human life starts at birth as being equally absurd and indefensible as claiming human life starts at conception.
I've ALWAYS said it is a developmental process....a continuum.
That's why I've ALWAYS said Roe vs Wade was a brilliant decision.
And unique DNA is irrelevant.
Ten test tube embryos all have the same DNA, are you saying there is only one unique human (or ten)?
Having the material necessary to produce life does not equal life.
And the Brave New World reference was stupid and not applicable in the least.
How is it you assume that the 75% of zygotes not making it to the next stage is "natural"? That's quite a leap for something you must view as infinitely important. (seeing as how a zygote is a human) Assuredly there are things that can be done that would greatly reduce that 75% number. Do those zygotes (little humans) not deserve a greater effort from us living humans to insure their development?
 
#614
#614
Vol8188 said:
How many ears have became separate people in human history?

I’ll wait….

Meanwhile every person ever started life as a zygote. Surely you can see why one has more value than the other
Click to expand...
I view them both as a group of cells that represent potential life.
Once an earlobe is cloned into a human, how will your paradigm change?
 
#615
#615
luthervol said:
No crux, no red herring.....simply an issue to be considered.
I view claiming human life starts at birth as being equally absurd and indefensible as claiming human life starts at conception.
I've ALWAYS said it is a developmental process....a continuum.
That's why I've ALWAYS said Roe vs Wade was a brilliant decision.
And unique DNA is irrelevant.
Ten test tube embryos all have the same DNA, are you saying there is only one unique human (or ten)?
Having the material necessary to produce life does not equal life.
And the Brave New World reference was stupid and not applicable in the least.
How is it you assume that the 75% of zygotes not making it to the next stage is "natural"? That's quite a leap for something you must view as infinitely important. (seeing as how a zygote is a human) Assuredly there are things that can be done that would greatly reduce that 75% number. Do those zygotes (little humans) not deserve a greater effort from us living humans to insure their development?
Click to expand...

Can you name those things that could be done?

Life beginning at conception isn’t debatable. Nor is the fact that the life is human life. You can still make valid arguments from there for abortion, but you have to start with there, with the truth
 
#616
#616
luthervol said:
I view them both as a group of cells that represent potential life.
Once an earlobe is cloned into a human, how will your paradigm change?
Click to expand...

Zygotes are not “potentially alive”. You seem to be making up your own random criteria for life that seems to be primarily based on location.

Someone cloning a person from an ear will not change my position. An ear is alive. An ear is a part of a person. A zygote is alive. It is part of a separate person.

Why do you only see the ear lobe as alive after it’s cloned and not before?
 
#617
#617
Orangeburst said:
Children are born prematurely all the time and need life support

Guess they aren’t human
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This was my son. He was born at I believe 30 weeks, spent a good time in nicu but is now flying around our house and living perfectly fine. I’ve had pro abortion people try to argue that it isn’t a baby until it’s born, or if it can’t survive on its own. I shake my head at the absolute stupidity it takes to say such an idiotic thing. Honestly I don’t think they believe it, they have to rationalize and minimize because they know they are supporting killing babies in the name of convenience.
 
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#618
#618
luthervol said:
No crux, no red herring.....simply an issue to be considered.
I view claiming human life starts at birth as being equally absurd and indefensible as claiming human life starts at conception.
I've ALWAYS said it is a developmental process....a continuum.
Click to expand...

When asked if not DNA in a zygote what makes a different human being, you said

luthervol said:
An ability to live outside of the womb.
Click to expand...

Is this not you? You were given a chance to claim viability but instead said

luthervol said:
It's still a potential life. It's not separate until it is separated.
Click to expand...

Specifically, it's not a separate life until it's born per YOU

And unique DNA is irrelevant.
Ten test tube embryos all have the same DNA, are you saying there is only one unique human (or ten)?
Having the material necessary to produce life does not equal life.
And the Brave New World reference was stupid and not applicable in the least.
Click to expand...

It does equate life. When a sperm and egg combine, it makes a new life. I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. The potential of cloning is another ridiculous red herring by you. BNW is relevant because you are dehumanizing a living human because it was from a test tube.

How is it you assume that the 75% of zygotes not making it to the next stage is "natural"? That's quite a leap for something you must view as infinitely important. (seeing as how a zygote is a human) assuredly there are things that can be done that would greatly reduce that 75% number. Do those zygotes (little humans) not deserve a greater effort from us living humans to insure their development?
Click to expand...

If a baby at any stage dies in the womb and it was a natural death, that is sad and of course we should do everything we can to prevent that death. Another stupid assumption by you that anyone would think otherwise. Again, you are incoherent on this subject like you are with many other subjects.
 
#619
#619
Vol8188 said:
Can you name those things that could be done?

Life beginning at conception isn’t debatable. Nor is the fact that the life is human life. You can still make valid arguments from there for abortion, but you have to start with there, with the truth
Click to expand...
Life beginning at conception is certainly debatable.
 
#620
#620
Vol8188 said:
Zygotes are not “potentially alive”. You seem to be making up your own random criteria for life that seems to be primarily based on location.

Someone cloning a person from an ear will not change my position. An ear is alive. An ear is a part of a person. A zygote is alive. It is part of a separate person.

Why do you only see the ear lobe as alive after it’s cloned and not before?
Click to expand...
I view it as living cells. When it is cloned into a person, I will view it as a living person. Pretty big difference.
 
#622
#622
utvols88 said:
When asked if not DNA in a zygote what makes a different human being, you said



Is this not you? You were given a chance to claim viability but instead said



Specifically, it's not a separate life until it's born per YOU



It does equate life. When a sperm and egg combine, it makes a new life. I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. The potential of cloning is another ridiculous red herring by you. BNW is relevant because you are dehumanizing a living human because it was from a test tube.



If a baby at any stage dies in the womb and it was a natural death, that is sad and of course we should do everything we can to prevent that death. Another stupid assumption by you that anyone would think otherwise. Again, you are incoherent on this subject like you are with many other subjects.
Click to expand...
Do you think any of that is contradictory?
You are struggling mightily to makes points that simply are not there.
An ability to live outside of the womb is viability.
It's not a separate life until it is separate........that's sort of definitional.
Cloning isn't a red herring, it's an issue that doesn't fit your nonsensical black and white perspective.
I never dehumanized a test tube baby, that's simply a gross misunderstanding on your part (or a lie).
Now if 10 eggs are fertilized and the strongest is chosen for implantation, did we just kill 9 humans? Ridiculous
Why in the world would I think otherwise about a lack of concern about the 75% of zygotes that never develop to 6 weeks?
I don't know, maybe because I have never once seen a single person mention them in any of the countless abortion debates (or anywhere else) in the PF.
A sperm and an egg do not make a new life, that's an absurd proposition. A sperm and an egg create the potential for a new life. The potential for life is special, but not nearly as special as life itself.
You guys have zero credibility. If 75% of newborns never reached 6 weeks of age, every one of you would be rightfully screaming for answers and actions to be taken to reduce that number. You're ignorantly straining at the gnat while swallowing a camel. (It hurts your argument and is one of many reasons why no one takes you seriously)
Do yourself a favor: get a clue, broaden your perspective, and strive for at least a little consistency.
 
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