Keystone Pipeline - a red line?

#1,227
#1,227
volinbham said:
I have to disagree with the last statement - a tremendous amount of construction is halting and cancelled based on Native American objection on sacred land issues.

My uncle does this type work all the time (identifying and documenting the Native side of the issue). There are many mandates that these impact studies must be done.

People like you and I do not have these specific protections and are limited to environmental concerns.
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no we don't have specific protections, but that is generally because our voices get heard.

Down here in Atlanta a neighborhood on the other side of the interstate was able to win a multi million dollar pledge from developers because of the Atlantic Station project. The neighborhood, Ansley Forest, was not directly effected and even in the argument was only indirectly affected and they had a say. Most cities with zoning and neighborhood groups/approvals give us a voice. we also have politicians we can complain too. as far as I know the natives don't have those same protections, or at least they aren't as heard as most of society can be.
 
#1,228
#1,228
Vol8188 said:
Based on your response, you don't understand "standard of living". If we can buy cheaper goods, our standard of living increases.

The ability to make things cheaper (less time and effort) is what creates wealth.
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I think you are the one that doesn't understand.
The only way you can create wealth is to create things. Changing sheets at a Holiday Inn Express doesn't create anything.

Our country has to make stuff to increase its wealth. Buying cheap crap is a temporary way to maintain our standard of living. Once we run out of good paying jobs and money, our standard of living goes down. That's when you get people demanding $15 an hour McDonalds jobs.
 
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#1,229
#1,229
Obsessed said:
We don't need any other country's oil. We have enough of our own. There is a reservoir off the coast that can run our entire country for 100 years. This is just one spot.
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Yes down in the Gulf, it's deep and just recently (10-15 years) has the technology caught up to be able to drill it economically enough.

There was an interview (it was either John Browne or Tony Hayward) with the CEO of BP and he laughed when someone asked about our reserves running out and mentioned the Gulf oil.
 
#1,230
#1,230
Vol8188 said:
A mix of him and just slow realizations about things such as the role of government. Idk if there was any one thing. It was a slow process for sure.
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:good!:

<no condescnension, just curious>

How old are you? (If you don't mind me asking?)
 
#1,233
#1,233
My dad worked in the gravity and magnetics field for 20 years. There is more oil off the coast of the USA than we can use in a couple hundred years.
 
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#1,235
#1,235
LouderVol said:
no we don't have specific protections, but that is generally because our voices get heard.

Down here in Atlanta a neighborhood on the other side of the interstate was able to win a multi million dollar pledge from developers because of the Atlantic Station project. The neighborhood, Ansley Forest, was not directly effected and even in the argument was only indirectly affected and they had a say. Most cities with zoning and neighborhood groups/approvals give us a voice. we also have politicians we can complain too. as far as I know the natives don't have those same protections, or at least they aren't as heard as most of society can be.
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There are numerous state and Federal mandates that serve as the voices. Native American impact studies are required if there's a hint the project impacts land that was once inhabited - I can tell you in Alabama that is a huge chunk of land.
 
#1,238
#1,238
VolStrom said:
I think you are the one that doesn't understand.
The only way you can create wealth is to create things. Changing sheets at a Holiday Inn Express doesn't create anything.

Our country has to make stuff to increase its wealth. Buying cheap crap is a temporary way to maintain our standard of living. Once we run out of good paying jobs and money, our standard of living goes down. That's when you get people demanding $15 an hour McDonalds jobs.
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Buying cheap crap allows us to make those things cheaper. Which means we get to hire more people.

Why would we run out of good paying jobs? I just told you buying cheap goods creates good paying jobs
 
#1,239
#1,239
Vol8188 said:
Buying cheap crap allows us to make those things cheaper. Which means we get to hire more people.

Why would we run out of good paying jobs? I just told you buying cheap goods creates good paying jobs
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'Cheap' goods is only half the equation Einstein. You COMPLETELY discount the other half.
 
#1,242
#1,242
Obsessed said:
My dad worked in the gravity and magnetics field for 20 years. There is more oil off the coast of the USA than we can use in a couple hundred years.
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I agree. My question is why are we stuck in this age of petroleum?

Don't we have the resources and money to develope things that run on cheaper/alternative sources?
 
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#1,243
#1,243
VolStrom said:
Apparently you don't understand the part where the people that buy crap have to have the money to buy crap.

Let that sink in a while.
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Thus the issue with tariffs. You make everything more expensive to benefit a very small few.
 
#1,244
#1,244
LouderVol said:
1 good one. apparently it hasn't been done. The specialists they brought in to record the culturally significant places never once consulted the tribes. and literally only studied the path of travel of the pipe, ignoring sensitive locations right next to the path that would have to be destroyed/disturbed.

The government identified about 400 some odd locations of import, and said only 20 were being disturbed. If that was the case I would be happy. according to the locals there are almost 1000 locations and more than half are being disturbed. and then you have the cases like my link where the guys building it go out of their way to destroy something. and you still have cases where they are building the pipes right next to lakes and other sources of drinking water.

any other "race" but Natives and this would be a complete outrage. and no I am not one of them I just call the bull**** as I see it.
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Then have the study proceed. However, I want far more "cultural and historically significant" than "My great-great-great-great-grandfather pitched his tipi here while hunting for buffalo and saw a vision of a white horse." I have no doubt some of the portions of the pipeline are rich in potential historic or cultural items, but I'm thinking a thousand seems a bit...much. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I have this feeling someone is overstating the importance of some of those areas.

And I wouldn't be so sure the "Native" population isn't happy about it. There are plenty here in Oklahoma more than willing to provide an easement for a price and be happy each and every time the check comes in. As well as the jobs it brings to this State. So, be careful of the alleged outrage level you believe the population should be bringing.
 
#1,245
#1,245
Pacer92 said:
I agree. My question is why are we stuck in this age of petroleum?

Don't we have the resources and money to develope things that run on cheaper/alternative sources?
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We do. There have been. Patent encumbrance and suppression are among methods used to derail, hinder, subjugate
 
#1,247
#1,247
volinbham said:
There are numerous state and Federal mandates that serve as the voices. Native American impact studies are required if there's a hint the project impacts land that was once inhabited - I can tell you in Alabama that is a huge chunk of land.
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after seeing the reactions from the locals, do you honestly think their voices were heard? Like I said the government did something, called it enough and did what they wanted to in the first place.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/08/31/north.dakota.pdf

brings this case because defendant U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
(“Corps”) has taken actions in violation of multiple federal statutes that authorize the pipeline’s
construction and operation. The construction and operation of the pipeline, as authorized by the
Case 1:16-cv-01534-JEB Document 1 Filed 07/27/16 Page 1 of 48
2
Earthjustice
705 Second Ave., Suite 203
Seattle, WA 98104
(206) 343-7340
Corps, threatens the Tribe’s environmental and economic well-being, and would damage and
destroy sites of great historic, religious, and cultural significance to the Tribe.
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#1,248
#1,248
Pacer92 said:
I agree. My question is why are we stuck in this age of petroleum?

Don't we have the resources and money to develope things that run on cheaper/alternative sources?
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yup. but big oil doesn't want to see their subsidies go to someone else. If I was one of them preparing for the future I would be pushing that stuff too. but its easier to stick with what they know, despite any draw backs.
 
#1,249
#1,249
Grand Vol said:
Then have the study proceed. However, I want far more "cultural and historically significant" than "My great-great-great-great-grandfather pitched his tipi here while hunting for buffalo and saw a vision of a white horse." I have no doubt some of the portions of the pipeline are rich in potential historic or cultural items, but I'm thinking a thousand seems a bit...much. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I have this feeling someone is overstating the importance of some of those areas.

And I wouldn't be so sure the "Native" population isn't happy about it. There are plenty here in Oklahoma more than willing to provide an easement for a price and be happy each and every time the check comes in. As well as the jobs it brings to this State. So, be careful of the alleged outrage level you believe the population should be bringing.
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should be bringing? they are bringing it. It gets no media attention but there are people out there peacefully protesting every day.

The Standing Rock tribe, one of the poorest communities in the nation according to 2010 census data cited by the tribe, relies on the Missouri River for drinking water, irrigation, fishing and recreation, and for cultural and religious practices.
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https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18082016/native-americans-sioux-tribe-protest-north-dakota-access-bakken-oil-pipeline-fossil-fuels

if you did any research you would know they don't care about some ancient campsite. the government thinks they do, but they don't. I don't understand it fully but it sounds like these people are still tied to their land, not like the transplants in Oklahoma. They still use the land, keep their nomadic traditions. Not all natives are happy to be on the government teat. These are active use places. which is why it is a sham the government didn't talk to the tribes.
 
#1,250
#1,250
LouderVol said:
yup. but big oil doesn't want to see their subsidies go to someone else. If I was one of them preparing for the future I would be pushing that stuff too. but its easier to stick with what they know, despite any draw backs.
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Maybe you can be a volnation first, tell us exact what subsidies big oil gets?
 
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