Keystone Pipeline - a red line?

[Vol8188]

Really, the person worried about 300 dollars saving money is going to create jobs? Especially if they are buying cheap crap from over "there"

You're talking out of your ass at this point. Countless businesses get by using cheap imported goods.

 

[DynaLo]

Speaking of washers and Made in America vs imported

Still, even an appliance manufactured in America will have some parts that are made offshore. For Whirlpool's newest front-load washers for the U.S. market, the company expects that 76 percent of parts will be U.S.-made. The remainder come from Mexico and Asia, primarily China. And while regulations from the Federal Trade Commission require that a product be "all or virtually all" made in America to be labeled as such, parsing the parts is no easy task. A motor, for instance, might be U.S.-made overall, but a circuit board mounted on it might come from a second country and certain chips on that board might come from still other countries.

Who makes LG appliances? Made entirely in America - Consumer Reports

Care to guess what part failures created the most customer service complaint calls I handled across all types of major Whirlpool/Maytag appliances? The circuit boards/control panels. Guess which parts were either always on back order or obsolete after a year or so? The circuit boards/control panels.

It didn't matter if it was a $300 Amana washer or a $3000 KitchenAid refrigerator, the imported control parts failed more than any other issue I handled.

Moral of story, very little is actually all made in America, regardless of price, and it's all garbage compared to products from past decades that truly were made here.

 

[sammyhagar]

I live in a country that demands a burial for a fetus but has no problem bulldozing an indigenous gravesite for an oil pipeline.

 

[hog88]

I live in a country that demands a burial for a fetus but has no problem bulldozing an indigenous gravesite for an oil pipeline.

It's called progress.

 

[Biopsyman]

Energy independence has been stated by every presidential candidate.. Finally have a president that will attempt to achieve it..Remember Obama said to keep your tires inflated

 

[Vol8188]

I live in a country that demands a burial for a fetus but has no problem bulldozing an indigenous gravesite for an oil pipeline.

Where in this country are native Americans not buried?

 

[midnight orange]

How you spend it, absolutely not. Because a washing machine is more expensive does not force you to buy it. It's not something you had that was taken away. With tariffs you still have the same choices you had before, some are more expensive now.

Raising the price of an item is taking away choice unless finances are not a consideration. If they lower the costs of European super cars to the price of a Honda, I have a lot more choices.

Just like now without tariffs I have options that are more expensive if I want American. And taking a choice away would not be hurting you. Unless you believe everytime you make a decision and buy something you are inherently limiting yourself by no longer being able to make that choice.

It depends on what product your talking about. Swiss watches, Italian cars, caviar, luxury brand clothing, etc are generally more expensive than their American counterparts and finances is a limit for me and most other people I know.

Tariff or no the same options are out there. Prices go up or down as they will. If the cheap option goes from 500 to 550 you haven't been harmed and you have lost nothing by the cost going up. Just like if I choose the more expensive option I have not cost myself the cheap option.

I now have to work longer to afford the $50 increase in price. The harm will be more time away from my family and/or reducing the cost of something else to offset the $50 increase. I am now $50 dollars poorer due to the price increase.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

I live in a country that demands a burial for a fetus but has no problem bulldozing an indigenous gravesite for an oil pipeline.

You think you got it bad, I live in a country that calls a human baby a "fetus", rips them limb from limb inside the womb of mother's who finaly decide they don't want to be a mother, and my tax money is going the nasty, ill run, never inspected abortion mills who can sell the baby body parts for collagen.

Aborted fetus cells used in beauty creams - Washington Times

or food products

Sickening: Major food corporations use tissue from aborted babies to manufacture flavor additives in processed foods - NaturalNews.com

 

[TennTradition]

We don't need any other country's oil. We have enough of our own. There is a reservoir off the coast that can run our entire country for 100 years. This is just one spot.

Off-shore oil does not come cheaply. Given the break even price, few are making those investments today.

 

[LouderVol]

Raising the price of an item is taking away choice unless finances are not a consideration. If they lower the costs of European super cars to the price of a Honda, I have a lot more choices.




It depends on what product your talking about. Swiss watches, Italian cars, caviar, luxury brand clothing, etc are generally more expensive than their American counterparts and finances is a limit for me and most other people I know.



I now have to work longer to afford the $50 increase in price. The harm will be more time away from my family and/or reducing the cost of something else to offset the $50 increase. I am now $50 dollars poorer due to the price increase.

to your last point: Then it doesn't matter if an item is cheaper or not if you can't afford it? Whether the cheapest item goes up or there is only one option that is expensive you still have to work more; but neither option was taken away from you.

This is like anything, price going up doesn't take away from you, it just influences your decision making process. At some point the price, even on the cheapest item, becomes prohibitive. You have not been denied anything by Europen sports cars being more expensive; you just have to make further considerations. Like if I want to eat cake all day, I can; but then I would have to drastically work out more to keep the weight off. Is the higher calories in the cake limiting my options on what I eat? No. but it does influence my mindset.

Everything we are talking about are luxury items. Car, luxury. Washing Machine, luxury. TV, luxury. I went two years without any of those. kinda wish I was still there. None of those directly influence my way of living. Car, I used public transit, washing machine both my apartment complex machines and the laundry mat across the street were options. TV, ha. Each influenced how I lived but my options weren't limited, if anything I just had to consider more options.

again if that person buys a 300 dollar washing machine, they have then limited themselves on what other 300 dollar items they can buy. the market doing the same thing is in no way wrong.

Living within your means, whatever they are, will do more for your way of living than cheaper goods will.

 

[Obsessed]

Off-shore oil does not come cheaply. Given the break even price, few are making those investments today.

I understand this. But technology is advancing everyday.

 

[midnight orange]

to your last point: Then it doesn't matter if an item is cheaper or not if you can't afford it? Whether the cheapest item goes up or there is only one option that is expensive you still have to work more; but neither option was taken away from you.

If I have $100 and the price of x is $101, then x is not an option which = less options.

This is like anything, price going up doesn't take away from you, it just influences your decision making process. At some point the price, even on the cheapest item, becomes prohibitive. You have not been denied anything by Europen sports cars being more expensive; you just have to make further considerations. Like if I want to eat cake all day, I can; but then I would have to drastically work out more to keep the weight off. Is the higher calories in the cake limiting my options on what I eat? No. but it does influence my mindset.

I can't afford a European super car so my finances deny me the choice of a European super car. Using your cake analogy, at some point you consume enough cake that there isn't enough time in the day to work off the calories. In order to remain fit, there is a limit on the amount of cake you can consume.

Everything we are talking about are luxury items. Car, luxury. Washing Machine, luxury. TV, luxury. I went two years without any of those. kinda wish I was still there. None of those directly influence my way of living. Car, I used public transit, washing machine both my apartment complex machines and the laundry mat across the street were options. TV, ha. Each influenced how I lived but my options weren't limited, if anything I just had to consider more options.

again if that person buys a 300 dollar washing machine, they have then limited themselves on what other 300 dollar items they can buy. the market doing the same thing is in no way wrong.

Correct. If the market is doing it, it's not wrong. However, if a politician is doing it to curry favor with a favored group, it is immoral.

Living within your means, whatever they are, will do more for your way of living than cheaper goods will.

Cheaper goods is a big part of living within your means. Wal-Mart's slogan "live better" alludes to having more choices within your means due to cheaper goods which equals more wealth.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

Energy independence has been stated by every presidential candidate.. Finally have a president that will attempt to achieve it..Remember Obama said to keep your tires inflated

Obama wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed but he was the biggest a-hole of the bunch.

 

[LouderVol]

If I have $100 and the price of x is $101, then x is not an option which = less options.

that difference can come from any source. if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. You still had the chance to buy it, no one is denying you that chance. they aren't saying you specifically can't. your financials are saying you can't get it, but you still have that chance.

I can't afford a European super car so my finances deny me the choice of a European super car. Using your cake analogy, at some point you consume enough cake that there isn't enough time in the day to work off the calories. In order to remain fit, there is a limit on the amount of cake you can consume.

yes what you have done, not what some outsider (market or government) has done. and in this case if the market ruled your finances could be in worse condition if you don't have a protected job

Correct. If the market is doing it, it's not wrong. However, if a politician is doing it to curry favor with a favored group, it is immoral.

agreed. but what about your own choices? stuck working at McDonalds your whole life, maybe you should have taken school more serious. can't afford your 5th kids birthday present, maybe you should have stopped at 4 or sooner. the price did nothing to you. you did it all yourself

Cheaper goods is a big part of living within your means. Wal-Mart's slogan "live better" alludes to having more choices within your means due to cheaper goods which equals more wealth.

If I may 10k a year. I have no more wealth if I spend it all than if I don't. I would argue I have less if I spend it all with depreciation of goods. outside of reverse interest, in which case I could pull my money, I am not going to lose value if I don't spend it.

 

[Vol8188]

If I may 10k a year. I have no more wealth if I spend it all than if I don't. I would argue I have less if I spend it all with depreciation of goods. outside of reverse interest, in which case I could pull my money, I am not going to lose value if I don't spend it.

If government intentionally raises a price to where people can no longer afford it, that's on the government. To deny that is to be intentionally dishonest.

If you make x per year (10k since that's what you used) your wealth is decreased by the higher prices created through tariffs. No different than how inflation decreases your wealth. Because it limits your purchasing power.

 

[LouderVol]

If government intentionally raises a price to where people can no longer afford it, that's on the government. To deny that is to be intentionally dishonest.

If you make x per year (10k since that's what you used) your wealth is decreased by the higher prices created through tariffs. No different than how inflation decreases your wealth. Because it limits your purchasing power.

to the first paragraph, how is that any different than the cost of doing business? If the price goes up because of a lack of supply apparently that is no big deal. If price goes up because of increase cost of an piece of it (lack of supply), no big deal, even if that final price increase is protecting a business along the way. If the price goes up because a company doubled its overhead that is no big deal. If the price goes up to protect a profit line because of a tariff placed on the buyer (Walmart) suddenly its a bad thing?

Businesses protect themselves any number of ways, government isn't allowed to do the same thing? right or wrong its hypocritical.

 

[midnight orange]

to the first paragraph, how is that any different than the cost of doing business? If the price goes up because of a lack of supply apparently that is no big deal. If price goes up because of increase cost of an piece of it (lack of supply), no big deal, even if that final price increase is protecting a business along the way. If the price goes up because a company doubled its overhead that is no big deal. If the price goes up to protect a profit line because of a tariff placed on the buyer (Walmart) suddenly its a bad thing?

Businesses protect themselves any number of ways, government isn't allowed to do the same thing? right or wrong its hypocritical.

It's wrong when the government does it because they are doing it through coercion. They are in this case acting as hired goons on behalf of a favored group to extort from you a higher than market price in order to benefit the favored group.

 

[LouderVol]

It's wrong when the government does it because they are doing it through coercion. They are in this case acting as hired goons on behalf of a favored group to extort from you a higher than market price in order to benefit the favored group.

The distributor doesn't have to jack up its prices. they could take a smaller margin of profit. but they don't. you see coercion all the time in the market. Walmart is a great example. these cheap goods from China, huge coercion there. but I guess its only wrong if we do it?

and i think its a fallacy to say in the case of tariffs that the goal is higher prices. the goal is more American businesses working in America, more American products on the shelves. And I am willing to bet for every cheap Chinese (insert foreign country here) option we "take" away, we add an American product. In some cases it may not be a 1:1 trade, but you will see more American options appear. and as our manufacturing becomes competitive more American companies will rise and we will have more options.

 

[Vol8188]

The distributor doesn't have to jack up its prices. they could take a smaller margin of profit. but they don't. you see coercion all the time in the market. Walmart is a great example. these cheap goods from China, huge coercion there. but I guess its only wrong if we do it?

and i think its a fallacy to say in the case of tariffs that the goal is higher prices. the goal is more American businesses working in America, more American products on the shelves. And I am willing to bet for every cheap Chinese (insert foreign country here) option we "take" away, we add an American product. In some cases it may not be a 1:1 trade, but you will see more American options appear. and as our manufacturing becomes competitive more American companies will rise and we will have more options.

What coercion? Are you forced to buy their products? If you believe their profit margins are too high, then compete against them. If the profit margins are so great you should have no problem.

Less American companies will rise because you've decreased their profit margins by placing tariffs on the cheap items they need to do business.

 

[Vol8188]

Louder,
Since you have no issue with the government making things more expensive, can you explain to your stance on minimum wage? You must believe it's good to increase minimum wage, correct?

 

[midnight orange]

The distributor doesn't have to jack up its prices. they could take a smaller margin of profit. but they don't. you see coercion all the time in the market. Walmart is a great example. these cheap goods from China, huge coercion there. but I guess its only wrong if we do it?

I think there is a segment of the population that believes that if they buy x at Wal-Mart for $10 then Wal-Mart has just made a $10 profit.

Are you saying that Wal-Mart forces China against it's will to provide merchandise or vise versa?

and i think its a fallacy to say in the case of tariffs that the goal is higher prices. the goal is more American businesses working in America, more American products on the shelves. And I am willing to bet for every cheap Chinese (insert foreign country here) option we "take" away, we add an American product. In some cases it may not be a 1:1 trade, but you will see more American options appear. and as our manufacturing becomes competitive more American companies will rise and we will have more options.

I don't give a damn what the goal of a tariff is, the result is higher coerced prices. What options are coming back? Are we going to start building textiles, paper mills,etc. Our manufacturing is competitive and specialized and it's cheaper to buy less specialized stuff from other countries.

We could build greenhouses to support a domestic banana industry but we would be poorer because South America does it better and cheaper so we buy from them. This is called comparative advantage. We in turn sell them airplanes, which we do better.

 

[Biopsyman]

Obama wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed but he was the biggest a-hole of the bunch.

And wore mom jeans

 

[LouderVol]

Louder,
Since you have no issue with the government making things more expensive, can you explain to your stance on minimum wage? You must believe it's good to increase minimum wage, correct?

try reading my posts again. I don't think the end goal is to make things more expensive. and as long as I have been alive, before these tariffs, and even after the free trade deals, prices have done nothing but increase anyway. If they are going to I would rather it happens with us in control. Essentially the way I see it is we are heading off the cliff before we get there.

If we continue to allow jobs to leave America there will be a cliff at some point. If we tie ourselves to a global economy there are way more things that can go wrong than if we were more independent. again I am not for a stoppage of imports, but it has to be responsible. I was trying to find some charts but haven't yet. but I would be interested to see the results of our manufacturing increase with automation vs the manufacturing of the world. are we keeping pace, so to speak. also is it increasing with our population and world population. again there are so many things that can go wrong with a global economy. When China hits their 1 child age shift watch out. that will take the whole world for a ride, we would be in a better place if we can produce more. I am guessing, it would depend on the information a quick google isn't producing.

as far as minimum wage, no I am generally against it. minimum wage does nothing to help us. it will never be high enough to add to the middle class. tariffs if it keeps/adds manufacturing will add to the middle class. as our nation has gone towards more service/office jobs you are seeing the wage gaps/ income inequality increase and a smaller middle class. imo more manufacturing helps the middle class as that is how it was formed.

imo a global economy has been welfare for various nations job markets. the global economy emerged after WWII because so much of the manufacturing base of Europe was destroyed and they had to import. also their population was gutted by back to back world wars. and the global economy has allowed that trend to continue. I hope for the best but prepare for the worst. a global economy is soooo vulnerable, if the lights go out the whole world is sent to an IOU. where localized manufacturing would mitigate that a bit.

 

[Vol8188]

Prices don't continually increase when you adjust for inflation. So you're completely wrong there.

 

[Vol8188]

How is it welfare for other nations?

If anything taxing Americans (tariffs) to protect manufacturing jobs would be welfare.