Keystone Pipeline - a red line?

[Y9 Vol]

Must be something that he is having trouble with the C&P of it. OR, trying to dumb it down for us.

 

[Vol Main]

We want to know. Please post what you have.

Off the top of my head: The arguments for Keystone XL were ginned up by a Canadian PR firm and provided to our politicians who repeated them to newspapers and news shows. It's all lies. The tar sand oil is owned by a Canadian company and it is produced in Canada. They said it would increase oil supply to the U.S., lower prices while producing jobs. Well, Keystone XL is a pipeline to the refineries on the Gulf of Mexico. The company is building the pipeline to the free trade zone on the Gulf, to EXPORT it at higher prices(Brent) than it is sold for in the United States(WTIC). Allowing a Canadian company to run its oil through the United States to the Gulf for export does not increase U.S. supply or lower prices at U.S. pumps. It just creates problems for us while increasing profits for the Canadian company. It would also allow the Canadian company to increase the price for its oil sold inside the U.S. to the international Brent price if it comes from a pipeline connected to the Gulf. We already have an excess of pipelines from Canada supplying oil to mid-American refineries. The Canadian company will pay no taxes to the U.S. or to any State or local government for Keystone XL Pipeline or the oil it transports. We get nothing for it. How is that in our national interest? It isn't. Let's talk about jobs. Almost none of the steel for the pipeline is produced in the U.S. Some of the finishing is done here, by a foreign owned company. Nearly all of the technical, better paying jobs are filled with Canadians. Most of the jobs filled by Americans are temporary, ditch digging jobs. That's better than nothing but jobs that last for only a few months do little to help local economies. Let's say that you do not care about global warming or the environment. Well, transporting tar sand oil through a pipeline is much more difficult than regular crude or natural gas, because it is thicker and requires heating during cold winter temperatures. Expanding and contracting steel creates cracks which lead to oil spills. This is not theory. It's known reality of engineering. Guess who pays to clean up the oil. We do. That is in the contract. I could go on, but you should get the picture. Keystone XL is not in U.S. national interest.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Id say 4-5 dollar gas will be here by april.

Last April I paid under $1/gallon in Kentucky...

 

[hUTch2002]

Our bread and butter for years after that was service industry. Universities, Hospitals, etc. Design build on kitchens, food service lines, dining rooms, etc. There's a massive amount of university and hospital dining rooms from Miami to Ogden to Yankee Stadium where you will find our stuff. We are picking up Kroger remodels now, and Regal Cinemas. We also do alot of independent places like local eateries, and such. If it has casework and millwork we will build and install. Every eatery at Tennessee Tech is our work.

Mercedes Benz in ATL is ours, AA Arena in Miami is ours.

You must be with one of the big GCs to get some of those deals. I bet Yankee stadium was cool.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Just remember who the Unions backed in this election...

I assumed they supported the GOP/Trump this time around... That last sentence about Do-gooders has me perplexed also.

 

[LouderVol]

Off the top of my head: The arguments for Keystone XL were ginned up by a Canadian PR firm and provided to our politicians who repeated them to newspapers and news shows. It's all lies. The tar sand oil is owned by a Canadian company and it is produced in Canada. They said it would increase oil supply to the U.S., lower prices while producing jobs. Well, Keystone XL is a pipeline to the refineries on the Gulf of Mexico. The company is building the pipeline to the free trade zone on the Gulf, to EXPORT it at higher prices(Brent) than it is sold for in the United States(WTIC). Allowing a Canadian company to run its oil through the United States to the Gulf for export does not increase U.S. supply or lower prices at U.S. pumps. It just creates problems for us while increasing profits for the Canadian company. It would also allow the Canadian company to increase the price for its oil sold inside the U.S. to the international Brent price if it comes from a pipeline connected to the Gulf. We already have an excess of pipelines from Canada supplying oil to mid-American refineries. The Canadian company will pay no taxes to the U.S. or to any State or local government for Keystone XL Pipeline or the oil it transports. We get nothing for it. How is that in our national interest? It isn't. Let's talk about jobs. Almost none of the steel for the pipeline is produced in the U.S. Some of the finishing is done here, by a foreign owned company. Nearly all of the technical, better paying jobs are filled with Canadians. Most of the jobs filled by Americans are temporary, ditch digging jobs. That's better than nothing but jobs that last for only a few months do little to help local economies. Let's say that you do not care about global warming or the environment. Well, transporting tar sand oil through a pipeline is much more difficult than regular crude or natural gas, because it is thicker and requires heating during cold winter temperatures. Expanding and contracting steel creates cracks which lead to oil spills. This is not theory. It's known reality of engineering. Guess who pays to clean up the oil. We do. That is in the contract that was approved by the previous administration. I could go on, but you should get the picture. Keystone XL is not in U.S. national interest.

My understanding is that they are exporting more to not the US because our storage is full. Which is why export prices in general are higher after that weird correction when futures were negative for week or whatever.

I have seen two numbers 11k and 42k. The 42k job loss I have seen has been from American union's. So I would place that a notch above ditch digger.

The two end processes, refining and mining, were already in place before. The pipe just makes the middle step more efficient for transporting. It's far easier to move electricity around to heat pipes than it is to move train cars around.

The middle american refineries are for product that stays in the US. So in this case the bypass makes sense. As if they are exporting this they will not have to transport the crude that comes out of processing as far, since they are on the coast.

As far as the spills, we also pay for the train spills. So that is a wash too.

The refineries are still where they are, so nothing lost there.

 

[Grand Vol]

I assumed they supported the GOP/Trump this time around... That last sentence about Do-gooders has me perplexed also.

Nope...

Biden all the way.

 

[Vol Main]

Revoking the permit in reality will cause more pollution and use of fossil fuels. The crude from Canada will still be shipped to our Gulf refineries but instead of it flowing through a pipeline with minimal carbon emissions it will be shipped on trains which burn diesel. Oh and Warren Buffet owns BNSF Railway so a big Dem supporter profits.

Why? That is a matter for trade agreements, which should not require us to ship Canadian oil on our railroads. I know it's happening, but that is another issue. If you object to that, then why don't you object to that instead of using it as an argument to support Keystone XL?

 

[Vol Main]

I do have a few shares, so there is that.

You can sell them and buy something else.

 

[Y9 Vol]

You can sell them and buy something else.

Then I would be as ignorant as you.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

Why? That is a matter for trade agreements, which should not require us to ship Canadian oil on our railroads. I know it's happening, but that is another issue. If you object to that, then why don't you object to that instead of using it as an argument to support Keystone XL?

What does this even mean

 

[hog88]

Off the top of my head: The arguments for Keystone XL were ginned up by a Canadian PR firm and provided to our politicians who repeated them to newspapers and news shows. It's all lies. The tar sand oil is owned by a Canadian company and it is produced in Canada. They said it would increase oil supply to the U.S., lower prices while producing jobs. Well, Keystone XL is a pipeline to the refineries on the Gulf of Mexico. The company is building the pipeline to the free trade zone on the Gulf, to EXPORT it at higher prices(Brent) than it is sold for in the United States(WTIC). Allowing a Canadian company to run its oil through the United States to the Gulf for export does not increase U.S. supply or lower prices at U.S. pumps. It just creates problems for us while increasing profits for the Canadian company. It would also allow the Canadian company to increase the price for its oil sold inside the U.S. to the international Brent price if it comes from a pipeline connected to the Gulf. We already have an excess of pipelines from Canada supplying oil to mid-American refineries. The Canadian company will pay no taxes to the U.S. or to any State or local government for Keystone XL Pipeline or the oil it transports. We get nothing for it. How is that in our national interest? It isn't. Let's talk about jobs. Almost none of the steel for the pipeline is produced in the U.S. Some of the finishing is done here, by a foreign owned company. Nearly all of the technical, better paying jobs are filled with Canadians. Most of the jobs filled by Americans are temporary, ditch digging jobs. That's better than nothing but jobs that last for only a few months do little to help local economies. Let's say that you do not care about global warming or the environment. Well, transporting tar sand oil through a pipeline is much more difficult than regular crude or natural gas, because it is thicker and requires heating during cold winter temperatures. Expanding and contracting steel creates cracks which lead to oil spills. This is not theory. It's known reality of engineering. Guess who pays to clean up the oil. We do. That is in the contract. I could go on, but you should get the picture. Keystone XL is not in U.S. national interest.

Do you understand what a global commodity is and how much of a commodity on the market whether it's produced here or Timbuktu affects consumer prices everywhere? Also the sands oil from Canada is not a Brent Crude, it is a heavy oil and since it's neither Brent or WTI (which is sweeter than Brent) it trades at a lower price. And as for safety, pipeline transportation of petroleum is far safer than that of train and infinitely safer than by truck, the only safer mode of transportation is by water.

Research it yourself and stop relying on partisan soundbites.

Trucks, Trains, or Pipelines – The Best Way to Transport Petroleum | OilPrice.com

 

[Vol Main]

My understanding is that they are exporting more to not the US because our storage is full. Which is why export prices in general are higher after that weird correction when futures were negative for week or whatever.

I have seen two numbers 11k and 42k. The 42k job loss I have seen has been from American union's. So I would place that a notch above ditch digger.

The two end processes, refining and mining, were already in place before. The pipe just makes the middle step more efficient for transporting. It's far easier to move electricity around to heat pipes than it is to move train cars around.

The middle american refineries are for product that stays in the US. So in this case the bypass makes sense. As if they are exporting this they will not have to transport the crude that comes out of processing as far, since they are on the coast.

As far as the spills, we also pay for the train spills. So that is a wash too.

The refineries are still where they are, so nothing lost there.

The Canadians want to sell their oil on the international market because the prices are higher. They are currently selling at a price discounted from the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude(domestic price) which is lower than Brent(international price). How is that in U.S. national interest? It isn't. We can spend hours debating jobs from Keystone XL. I stand on my post. Why should Americans make it more efficient for a Canadian company to sell Canadian oil overseas? I am an American, not a Canadian. What good does it do us to make it easier for Candian oil companies to by-pass our mid-American refineries? That does not increase our supply, so it does not make sense for us, for our national interests.

 

[hog88]

Why? That is a matter for trade agreements, which should not require us to ship Canadian oil on our railroads. I know it's happening, but that is another issue. If you object to that, then why don't you object to that instead of using it as an argument to support Keystone XL?

I don't object to Canadian oil being shipped on US railroads. I object to politicians using global warming as a reason to block the pipeline.

 

[Grand Vol]

I object to politicians using global warming as a reason to block the pipeline.

I don't even think it's global warning in this case.

 

[LouderVol]

The Canadians want to sell their oil on the international market because the prices are higher. They are currently selling at a price discounted from the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude(domestic price) which is lower than Brent(international price). How is that in U.S. national interest? It isn't. We can spend hours debating jobs from Keystone XL. I stand on my post. Why should Americans make it more efficient for a Canadian company to sell Canadian oil overseas? I am an American, not a Canadian. What good does it do us to make it easier for Candian oil companies to by-pass our mid-American refineries? That does not increase our supply, so it does not make sense for us, for our national interests.

I have never looked into the specifics of the deal, as far as money, or knew the previous process. My understanding is that we were shipping it across the US anyway. I would have though that there was some money coming from the deal. As far as I read this was just a crossing the border permit for federal approval. The rest were state based. I have no idea why we would fight something that was already crossing our border anyway if it's more efficient and safer.

 

[Vol Main]

Do you understand what a global commodity is and how much of a commodity on the market whether it's produced here or Timbuktu affects consumer prices everywhere? Also the sands oil from Canada is not a Brent Crude, it is a heavy oil and since it's neither Brent or WTI (which is sweeter than Brent) it trades at a lower price. And as for safety, pipeline transportation of petroleum is far safer than that of train and infinitely safer than by truck, the only safer mode of transportation is by water.

Research it yourself and stop relying on partisan soundbites.

Trucks, Trains, or Pipelines – The Best Way to Transport Petroleum | OilPrice.com

Tell yourself what to do and how to research. I already know how to do that. Tar sand oil sells at a discount, because it costs more to refine. But the refined products do not sell at a discount. The Canadians want to send their tar sand oil to a refinery on the Gulf in a free trade zone, to be refined and exported at top market dollar. If they want to ship their crude oil overseas, let them pipe it or rail it to their own coasts. America is not Canada, and we do not benefit from their oil shipments.

 

[hog88]

The Canadians want to sell their oil on the international market because the prices are higher. They are currently selling at a price discounted from the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude(domestic price) which is lower than Brent(international price). How is that in U.S. national interest? It isn't. We can spend hours debating jobs from Keystone XL. I stand on my post. Why should Americans make it more efficient for a Canadian company to sell Canadian oil overseas? I am an American, not a Canadian. What good does it do us to make it easier for Candian oil companies to by-pass our mid-American refineries? That does not increase our supply, so it does not make sense for us, for our national interests.

The more oil on the market lowers everyones price. Why is that hard to understand?

The reason diesel fuel is now more expensive in the US than gasoline is several refineries in Europe have been shuttered so we export almost 1/2 billion barrels of diesel a year. See how that works? The commodity is sold to the highest bidder.

 

[hog88]

I have never looked into the specifics of the deal, as far as money, or knew the previous process. My understanding is that we were shipping it across the US anyway. I would have though that there was some money coming from the deal. As far as I read this was just a crossing the border permit for federal approval. The rest were state based. I have no idea why we would fight something that was already crossing our border anyway if it's more efficient and safer.

Canada doesn't have the capability to refine the sands oil but our Gulf Coast refineries do.

 

[Grand Vol]

Canada doesn't have the capability to refine the sands oil but our Gulf Coast refineries do.

For now...

Just wait until the EPA starts taking a look

 

[hog88]

Tell yourself what to do and how to research. I already know how to do that. Tar sand oil sells at a discount, because it costs more to refine. But the refined products do not sell at a discount. The Canadians want to send their tar sand oil to refineries on the Gulf in a free trade zone, to be refined and exported at top market dollar. If they want to ship their crude oil overseas, let them pipe it or rail it to their own coasts. America is not Canada, and we do not benefit from their oil shipments.

Holy crap! Our refineries are buying the sand oil, refining it and THEN OUR refineries sell it on the global market. The Canadians are NOT selling the refined product.

 

[Vol Main]

I have never looked into the specifics of the deal, as far as money, or knew the previous process. My understanding is that we were shipping it across the US anyway. I would have though that there was some money coming from the deal. As far as I read this was just a crossing the border permit for federal approval. The rest were state based. I have no idea why we would fight something that was already crossing our border anyway if it's more efficient and safer.

I know that some of it is shipped by rail to the U.S. West coast, which is much closer to the source than the Gulf. The money coming from the deal goes to law firms, public relations firms, lobbies, and PACs, not to the U.S. Treasury or to State and local governments in the form of taxes. Why? Because Keystone XL plans to connect to a foreign owned refinery in the free trade zone on the Gulf. No taxes are collected on it, from A to Z. You say that it is already crossing our border anyway, but I don't think that is accurate, if you are arguing that Keystone would merely be a change in transportation. I know it is not, because Keystone XL will require a major build out of capacity for tar sand oil in the Gulf refinery. Yes, that will create some jobs. Taken as a whole, is Keystone XL in the U.S. national interest? No.

 

[GVF]

You must be with one of the big GCs to get some of those deals. I bet Yankee stadium was cool.

We didn't do as much there as American Airlines Arena or Mercedes. Yankee stadium was some high end moveable buffet style carts. We actually did counters and seating and ceilings, furniture etc at AA. Bar with curved concrete panels, etc. It was high end too. I'm not sure how big those GC's are, but we do have a good relationship with some good ones that feed us some of these projects outside of our normal business with them. Alot of it also depends on who the food service provider is to the clients. We get alot of our business through Compass, Sodexo, etc. Their contracts with the site normally require capital expense remodels every so often. So, we are subject to get jobs that go in just about anywhere. Sometimes we do the white box build out along with the casework install. sometimes we install only the casework. Sometimes we just make and ship for GC install. For example, three years ago, we did all 13 locations in Miami for Jackson Health Systems, but our client was Sodexo. We are based in Middle TN, but we probably have more installs concentrated in FL than any other state.

So, if you are ever at a Heats game, the bar area on the second level is all us.

 

[Vol Main]

Holy crap! Our refineries are buying the sand oil, refining it and THEN OUR refineries sell it on the global market. The Canadians are NOT selling the refined product.

You missed the part where I said foreign owned refinery. The refinery is not owned by an American company. It is not our refinery. It is foreign owned and located in a free trade zone on the Gulf of Mexico, which means that the oil goes in and out of it tax free.

 

[Carl Pickens]

The Canadians want to sell their oil on the international market because the prices are higher. They are currently selling at a price discounted from the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude(domestic price) which is lower than Brent(international price). How is that in U.S. national interest? It isn't. We can spend hours debating jobs from Keystone XL. I stand on my post. Why should Americans make it more efficient for a Canadian company to sell Canadian oil overseas? I am an American, not a Canadian. What good does it do us to make it easier for Candian oil companies to by-pass our mid-American refineries? That does not increase our supply, so it does not make sense for us, for our national interests.

You’re an American ? pfft