Keystone Pipeline - a red line?

[LouderVol]

Canada doesn't have the capability to refine the sands oil but our Gulf Coast refineries do.

Is this part of the standard free trade (old Nafta) agreements we had? Or has this sand always been separate.

I always figured it was part of the balance there. We ship their oil so that they buy our cars or something like that.

 

[hog88]

You missed the part where I said foreign owned refinery. The refinery is not owned by an American company. It is not our refinery. It is foreign owned and located in a free trade zone on the Gulf of Mexico, which means that the oil goes in and out of it tax free.

Motiva Refinery has been partially or completely foreign owned since 1988 and yes it pays taxes even though a good part (not all) of it is in a FTZ. If it paid no taxes why sue over tax liabilities and be embroiled in litigation with the city, state and federal government over taxes? It also employees thousands of Americans that pay taxes.

 

[hog88]

Is this part of the standard free trade (old Nafta) agreements we had? Or has this sand always been separate.

I always figured it was part of the balance there. We ship their oil so that they buy our cars or something like that.

I don't have an answer to that. I always thought Canada wouldn't permit any new refineries or additions to existing ones as the reason.

 

[Vol Main]

The more oil on the market lowers everyones price. Why is that hard to understand?

The reason diesel fuel is now more expensive in the US than gasoline is several refineries in Europe have been shuttered so we export almost 1/2 billion barrels of diesel a year. See how that works? The commodity is sold to the highest bidder.

Thank you for telling me that U.S. diesel prices are high because demand from Europe for diesel. I already knew that. Thank you for telling me that more oil on the international market lowers prices. I already knew that, too. Thank you for thinking about the difference between Brent and WTI before commenting further about Keystone's effect on oil prices. You will do that, won't you Hog? You skipped over it, but it's not to late to take a gander at those prices and think about them before replying to me.

 

[hog88]

Thank you for telling me that U.S. diesel prices are high because demand from Europe for diesel. I already knew that. Thank you for telling me that more oil on the international market lowers prices. I already knew that, too. Thank you for thinking about the difference between Brent and WTI before commenting further about Keystone's effect on oil prices. You will do that, won't you Hog? You skipped over it, but it's not to late to take a gander at those prices and think about them before replying to me.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

I know that some of it is shipped by rail to the U.S. West coast, which is much closer to the source than the Gulf. The money coming from the deal goes to law firms, public relations firms, lobbies, and PACs, not to the U.S. Treasury or to State and local governments in the form of taxes. Why? Because Keystone XL plans to connect to a foreign owned refinery in the free trade zone on the Gulf. No taxes are collected on it, from A to Z. You say that it is already crossing our border anyway, but I don't think that is accurate, if you are arguing that Keystone would merely be a change in transportation. I know it is not, because Keystone XL will require a major build out of capacity for tar sand oil in the Gulf refinery. Yes, that will create some jobs. Taken as a whole, is Keystone XL in the U.S. national interest? No.

It's pretty amazing that they're building a massive pipeline and paying no property taxes for the land it sits on.

 

[Vol Main]

It's pretty amazing that they're building a massive pipeline and paying no property taxes for the land it sits on.

Are you suggesting that more property taxes will be collected or that the net increase will be zero? The only increase in tax revenue would be temporary, from assessments on construction camps. Some people read for the purpose of understanding. Others read for the purpose of objecting. Do you understand that the oil passing through a Keystone XL pipeline would not be taxed by the federal, state, or local governments? It will not even be taxed when it is sold out of the refinery.

 

[Vol8188]

Are you suggesting that more property taxes will be collected or that the net increase will be zero? The only increase in tax revenue would be temporary, from assessments on construction camps.

More jobs=more revenue

Once again this move means less jobs, a greater carbon footprint, and an increase in the cost of goods

 

[Vol Main]

More jobs=more revenue

Once again this move means less jobs, a greater carbon footprint, and an increase in the cost of goods

Your saying that does not make it true. This is why I did not want to bother posting about Keystone XL. You do not want to know. Your only purpose is to make objections which are not real, to anything I say. Right?

 

[hog88]

Your saying that does not make it true. This is why I did not want to bother posting about Keystone XL. You do not want to know. Your only purpose is to make objections which are not real, to anything I say. Right?

You don't want to admit that you are completely wrong and just parroting DNC talking points.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

Are you suggesting that more property taxes will be collected or that the net increase will be zero? The only increase in tax revenue would be temporary, from assessments on construction camps. Some people read for the purpose of understanding. Others read for the purpose of objecting. Do you understand that the oil passing through a Keystone XL pipeline would not be taxed by the federal, state, or local governments? It will not even be taxed when it is sold out of the refinery.

I know you're incredibly smart (you've shown us that repeatedly) so I know you know that the property tax rates on agricultural land and oil/gas land are different.

 

[Vol Main]

View attachment 341846

Oil traded on the international markets are bought and sold at international prices, called the Brent price. Domestically produced oil sold inside the U.S. to refineries are sold at a different price, the West Texas Intermediate or WTI price. WTI prices are typically lower than Brent prices. Of course they vary, but think five bucks a barrel and you usually won't be far wrong.

 

[hog88]

Oil traded on the international markets are bought and sold at international prices, called the Brent price. Domestically produced oil sold inside the U.S. to refineries are sold at a different price, the West Texas Intermediate or WTI price. WTI prices are typically lower than Brent prices. Of course they vary, but think five bucks a barrel and you usually won't be far wrong.

And? Do you think you are telling me something I didn't know and it supports part of your argument?

 

[UT_Dutchman]

Off the top of my head: The arguments for Keystone XL were ginned up by a Canadian PR firm and provided to our politicians who repeated them to newspapers and news shows. It's all lies. The tar sand oil is owned by a Canadian company and it is produced in Canada. They said it would increase oil supply to the U.S., lower prices while producing jobs. Well, Keystone XL is a pipeline to the refineries on the Gulf of Mexico. The company is building the pipeline to the free trade zone on the Gulf, to EXPORT it at higher prices(Brent) than it is sold for in the United States(WTIC). Allowing a Canadian company to run its oil through the United States to the Gulf for export does not increase U.S. supply or lower prices at U.S. pumps. It just creates problems for us while increasing profits for the Canadian company. It would also allow the Canadian company to increase the price for its oil sold inside the U.S. to the international Brent price if it comes from a pipeline connected to the Gulf. We already have an excess of pipelines from Canada supplying oil to mid-American refineries. The Canadian company will pay no taxes to the U.S. or to any State or local government for Keystone XL Pipeline or the oil it transports. We get nothing for it. How is that in our national interest? It isn't. Let's talk about jobs. Almost none of the steel for the pipeline is produced in the U.S. Some of the finishing is done here, by a foreign owned company. Nearly all of the technical, better paying jobs are filled with Canadians. Most of the jobs filled by Americans are temporary, ditch digging jobs. That's better than nothing but jobs that last for only a few months do little to help local economies. Let's say that you do not care about global warming or the environment. Well, transporting tar sand oil through a pipeline is much more difficult than regular crude or natural gas, because it is thicker and requires heating during cold winter temperatures. Expanding and contracting steel creates cracks which lead to oil spills. This is not theory. It's known reality of engineering. Guess who pays to clean up the oil. We do. That is in the contract. I could go on, but you should get the picture. Keystone XL is not in U.S. national interest.

This says different and the oil is also coming from North Dakota.

Background of Keystone XL

 

[Vol Main]

Then I would be as ignorant as you.

Yes, you would then be ignorant as me, but not as good looking.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Ted Cruz spars with Buttigieg over Loss of Jobs after Keystone XL cancellation

Sen. Ted Cruz slammed the Biden administration during transportation secretary nominee Pete Buttigieg’s confirmation hearing for canceling the Keystone XL pipeline on his first day in office.

"And with the stroke of a pen, President Biden has told those 11,000 workers, those union workers, 'Your jobs are gone,’" Cruz said during Buttigieg’s confirmation hearing on Thursday morning. “Mr. Buttigieg, what do you say to those workers whose jobs have just been eliminated by presidential edict?"

Buttigieg responded by saying that Biden’s climate agenda will create a net increase in jobs, to which Cruz shot back, “So, for those workers, the answer is someone else will get a job?”

Ted Cruz spars with Buttigieg over loss of jobs after Keystone XL cancellation

 

[Vol8188]

Your saying that does not make it true. This is why I did not want to bother posting about Keystone XL. You do not want to know. Your only purpose is to make objections which are not real, to anything I say. Right?

me saying what? Which part do you not believe to be true? Unlike you, I will happily defend any claim I make.

And no, my argument is not to solely object to anything you say. For example we may both have common ground in opposing the use of eminent domain to build the pipeline.

 

[Vol Main]

And? Do you think you are telling me something I didn't know and it supports part of your argument?

Yes, I thought that after you posted a meme of a man with a contorted countenance, saying "What?" as if you did not understand. Fact is that a lot of people do not know the difference between Brent and WTI, because they do not trade commodities.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm just amazed at the arrogance. This guy couldn't wait to plunge the knife in the back of energy producing States so soon after this election. In particular, Pennsylvania, where he lied about fracking and then stole that state in the election. Wow...

 

[hog88]

Yes, I thought that after you posted a meme of a man with a contorted countenance, saying "What?" as if you did not understand. Fact is that a lot of people do not know the difference between Brent and WTI, because they do not trade commodities.

I know the difference but it's not relevant to your position or argument.

 

[Y9 Vol]

Yes, you would then be ignorant as me, but not as good looking.

"OPINIONS VARY"

 

[Vol Main]

This says different and the oil is also coming from North Dakota.

Background of Keystone XL

Isn't "This" from the Canadian company(TC Energy) that wants to build the pipeline to the Gulf so it can sell more of its oil and at higher prices? I already covered this kind of misinformation, but I'll say it again. TC Energy paid a PR firm to create advertisements and sales pitches for the Pipeline. The product of that PR company is created for effect, not for accurate information. TC Energy pays the PR firm to create sales pitches and then distributes them to all concerned. They can tell all the lies they want to tell and get them into industry journals which they support with their advertising and the offices of Congressmen whom they support with contributions. Then the Congressman repeats their sales pitch and it can end up in your local newspaper, from a supposed good authority.

 

[hog88]

Isn't "This" from the Canadian company(TC Energy) that wants to build the pipeline to the Gulf so it can sell more of its oil and at higher prices? I already covered this kind of misinformation, but I'll say it again. TC Energy paid a PR firm to create advertisements and sales pitches for the Pipeline. The product of that PR company is created for effect, not for accurate information. TC Energy pays the PR firm to create sales pitches and then distributes them to all concerned. They can tell all the lies they want to tell.

You really have no clue how it works do you?

 

[C-south]

When is the best time to go to school for the new coding jobs? When are they gonna start putting those car chargers everywhere that are powered by coal fired power plants?

 

[UT_Dutchman]

Isn't "This" from the Canadian company(TC Energy) that wants to build the pipeline to the Gulf so it can sell more of its oil and at higher prices? I already covered this kind of misinformation, but I'll say it again. TC Energy paid a PR firm to create advertisements and sales pitches for the Pipeline. The product of that PR company is created for effect, not for accurate information. TC Energy pays the PR firm to create sales pitches and then distributes them to all concerned. They can tell all the lies they want to tell.

Read it, no its from a organization out of DC called Global Energy Institute. Look just admit it this was another of bidens initiatives to say Trump bad. This action will hurt Americans much more than it helps.