Latest Coronavirus - Yikes

#86,628
#86,628
hog88 said:
True, but locking down the healthy is not vigilance it's tyranny.
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You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I believe we could be much more open now with a lower death toll had we remembered the collective responsibility that is the American experiment.

One of my prized possessions is a book of ration stamps from WW2. It is a reminder of a time when we faced a threat head-on as a nation and understood that each of us had a role to play. I wonder; would we be willing to do the same if Covid had a face and a flag like our enemies in WW2? Or, if faced with the same challenges as in the 1940s, if Americans would have rallies burning their ration books and crying out against the tyranny of doing what was needed to defeat the Axis?

Freedom isn't doing what you want when you want it. If that's the case, then I have much less freedom than most everyone else here because of my disability. The list of things I'm not allowed to do for the protection of others is quite long. But I don't feel less free. Not at all.

And maybe that's the thing - my understanding of freedom comes from a completely different life experience. My understanding of the difference between tyranny and vigilance comes from those experiences. I wouldn't wish the crucible I've been through on any of you, but the understanding these experiences have given me have been invaluable in pushing through the tough times.

Thanks for helping me thinkb through that. I appreciate it.
 
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#86,629
#86,629
AshG said:
You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I believe we could be much more open now with a lower death toll had we remembered the collective responsibility that is the American experiment.

One of my prized possessions is a book of ration stamps from WW2. It is a reminder of a time when we faced a threat head-on as a nation and understood that each of us had a role to play. I wonder; would we be willing to do the same if Covid had a face and a flag like our enemies in WW2? Or, if faced with the same challenges as in the 1940s, if Americans would have rallies burning their ration books and crying out against the tyranny of doing what was needed to defeat the Axis?

Freedom isn't doing what you want when you want it. If that's the case, then I have much less freedom than most everyone else here because of my disability. The list of things I'm not allowed to do for the protection of others is quite long. But I don't feel less free. Not at all.

And maybe that's the thing - my understanding of freedom comes from a completely different life experience. My understanding of the difference between tyranny and vigilance comes from those experiences. I wouldn't wish the crucible I've been through on any of you, but the understanding these experiences have given me have been invaluable in pushing through the tough times.

Thanks for helping me thinkb through that. I appreciate it.
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Freedom is the .gov giving us the facts and maybe suggestions and treating the citizenry like adults not like children which they did in many states. Comparing WWII to this pandemic is not a good comparison, there was a huge black market that sprung up due to the rationing. Then you had the internment camps, would you support those for covid exposures?

I think had the various state governments and the federal government just given us the facts as they knew them rather than instituting lock downs and stay at home orders, the average US citizen would have responded in a much different way.
 
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#86,630
#86,630
hog88 said:
Freedom is the .gov giving us the facts and maybe suggestions and treating the citizenry like adults not like children which they did in many states. Comparing WWII to this pandemic is not a good comparison, there was a huge black market that sprung up due to the rationing. Then you had the internment camps, would you support those for covid exposures?

I think had the various state governments and the federal government just given us the facts as they knew them rather than instituting lock downs and stay at home orders, the average US citizen would have responded in a much different way.
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I think we agree more on this than is evident at the surface. I would have handled things very differently had I been in charge at any level.

I think an initial lockdown/stay at home was warranted while we figured out exactly what we were up against. Then open back up with mask requirements as quickly as possible. Admittedly, most of my ideas come from Dr. ZDogg's video blogging throughout this mess - his medical assessments have matched up with my most medically conservative MD friends, but with more logical plans to open up quickly and fully.

There's so much blame to go around on this, I fear history will not be kind much as it was not kind to every other pandemic Western civilization has survived. We have a history of bungling these things.
 
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#86,631
#86,631
AshG said:
I think we agree more on this than is evident at the surface. I would have handled things very differently had I been in charge at any level.

I think an initial lockdown/stay at home was warranted while we figured out exactly what we were up against. Then open back up with mask requirements as quickly as possible. Admittedly, most of my ideas come from Dr. ZDogg's video blogging throughout this mess - his medical assessments have matched up with my most medically conservative MD friends, but with more logical plans to open up quickly and fully.

There's so much blame to go around on this, I fear history will not be kind much as it was not kind to every other pandemic Western civilization has survived. We have a history of bungling these things.
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I can't imagine a scenario where I could ever support or understand the .gov shutting down the economy and ordering residents to stay at home.
 
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#86,632
#86,632
hog88 said:
I can't imagine a scenario where I could ever support or understand the .gov shutting down the economy and ordering residents to stay at home.
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Would you have handled the bombing of London during WW2 differently, then? Or would you have said "I can have my lights on, screw Churchill's mandates!" during the bombing runs?
 
#86,633
#86,633
AshG said:
Would you have handled the bombing of London during WW2 differently, then? Or would you have said "I can have my lights on, screw Churchill's mandates!" during the bombing runs?
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I would turn my lights off if the Nazi party resurrected itself and started dropping COVID infected blood bombs on my neighborhood.
 
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#86,637
#86,637
AshG said:
You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I believe we could be much more open now with a lower death toll had we remembered the collective responsibility that is the American experiment.

One of my prized possessions is a book of ration stamps from WW2. It is a reminder of a time when we faced a threat head-on as a nation and understood that each of us had a role to play. I wonder; would we be willing to do the same if Covid had a face and a flag like our enemies in WW2? Or, if faced with the same challenges as in the 1940s, if Americans would have rallies burning their ration books and crying out against the tyranny of doing what was needed to defeat the Axis?

Freedom isn't doing what you want when you want it. If that's the case, then I have much less freedom than most everyone else here because of my disability. The list of things I'm not allowed to do for the protection of others is quite long. But I don't feel less free. Not at all.

And maybe that's the thing - my understanding of freedom comes from a completely different life experience. My understanding of the difference between tyranny and vigilance comes from those experiences. I wouldn't wish the crucible I've been through on any of you, but the understanding these experiences have given me have been invaluable in pushing through the tough times.

Thanks for helping me thinkb through that. I appreciate it.
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Pretty much the entire country shut down for 2 months last Spring. What more should have been done?
 
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#86,639
#86,639
AshG said:
Would you have handled the bombing of London during WW2 differently, then? Or would you have said "I can have my lights on, screw Churchill's mandates!" during the bombing runs?
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London is not in the United States. Stop comparing us to countries our forebears escaped and fought in pursuit of liberty.
 
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#86,640
#86,640
AshG said:
I don't know anymore. It's all ecclesiastical at this point.
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I'm a big hindsight guy. Everyday I drive home from work I think about how I could have been better and how I would handle something if it came up again. As a society, I think we need to do the same. I honestly don't think there's anything we could have done in March and April that would have led to zero cases now, but I also think we need to rethink this for the next time this sort of thing comes up.

In hindsight I think that there's no way to keep 330 million people at home for any extended period of time. Folks need to go get food, medical care etc. I don't think the lockdowns did much for us in the end. It only delayed the cases. Probably the one thing that should change next time is to speed up the release of a vaccine. Maybe we won't get to the point where Dr McCoy can come up with one in a half hour but when millions of lives and livelihoods are at stake, I don't think we can afford to wait a yr for a vaccine that appears to have been developed very quickly. All of the candidates seem to work at a 95% rate
 
#86,641
#86,641
AshG said:
You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I believe we could be much more open now with a lower death toll had we remembered the collective responsibility that is the American experiment.

One of my prized possessions is a book of ration stamps from WW2. It is a reminder of a time when we faced a threat head-on as a nation and understood that each of us had a role to play. I wonder; would we be willing to do the same if Covid had a face and a flag like our enemies in WW2? Or, if faced with the same challenges as in the 1940s, if Americans would have rallies burning their ration books and crying out against the tyranny of doing what was needed to defeat the Axis?

Freedom isn't doing what you want when you want it. If that's the case, then I have much less freedom than most everyone else here because of my disability. The list of things I'm not allowed to do for the protection of others is quite long. But I don't feel less free. Not at all.

And maybe that's the thing - my understanding of freedom comes from a completely different life experience. My understanding of the difference between tyranny and vigilance comes from those experiences. I wouldn't wish the crucible I've been through on any of you, but the understanding these experiences have given me have been invaluable in pushing through the tough times.

Thanks for helping me thinkb through that. I appreciate it.
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Yeah....cause ration books were the worst thing our government did during WWII.

The mythos of the greater good is what allowed and encouraged the internment camps for the Japs. Let's ask how they feel.

It's how the government justified the Tuskegee experiments. Let's get those victims of your greater American good a chance to speak.

The main issue with your greater good bs is that those pushing it have long since abandoned its policies and have turned the greater American good into their greater good. The power you want to give them serves NOONE but the people in charge.

It's a catch phrase they like to use to hide what they are really doing. It was that was back in the 40s, and is the same now.

The greater the power the greater the atrocity.
 
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#86,642
#86,642
AshG said:
Would you have handled the bombing of London during WW2 differently, then? Or would you have said "I can have my lights on, screw Churchill's mandates!" during the bombing runs?
Click to expand...
You could have your lights on. Move.

The fallacy to this argument is that it was just the lights, or food rationing. Everything was restricted. The government turned the people against each in order to maintain power. First the Nazis, then the commies. Then terrorists, now a disease with 98% survival rate.

It doesnt stop and never should have been allowed.
 
#86,643
#86,643
LouderVol said:
now a disease with 98% survival rate.
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And a high risk of permanent heart damage. And/or permanent neurological damage. And/or permanent lung scarring. So many legitimate, documented, acute or chronic side effects that greatly diminish quality of life that don't fit into the binary live/die narrative.

You must not know any long haulers, either.
 
#86,644
#86,644
I'd like to know how many people test positive without taking the vaccine vs people that don't? All we hear is that the vaccine is 95% effective. Effective versus what?
 
#86,645
#86,645
VolStrom said:
I'd like to know how many people test positive without taking the vaccine vs people that don't? All we hear is that the vaccine is 95% effective. Effective versus what?
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Testing is a problem. While Covid is most often manifested in respiratory symptoms (thus the nasal swab test being the most common), it can also colonize the digestive tract. That can only be tested for via blood or fecal sample.

As for the 95% effective against what, it's 95% effective against the virus setting up in the body at a level where it can be shed and infect other people.
 
#86,646
#86,646
hog88 said:
I can't imagine a scenario where I could ever support or understand the .gov shutting down the economy and ordering residents to stay at home.
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Only because we have suppossedly free money. One day the bankers will make a collection call and everything the savers saved or invested will go down the crapper. Then off with their heads. We are in trouble.
 
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#86,648
#86,648
AshG said:
You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I believe we could be much more open now with a lower death toll had we remembered the collective responsibility that is the American experiment.

One of my prized possessions is a book of ration stamps from WW2. It is a reminder of a time when we faced a threat head-on as a nation and understood that each of us had a role to play. I wonder; would we be willing to do the same if Covid had a face and a flag like our enemies in WW2? Or, if faced with the same challenges as in the 1940s, if Americans would have rallies burning their ration books and crying out against the tyranny of doing what was needed to defeat the Axis?

Freedom isn't doing what you want when you want it. If that's the case, then I have much less freedom than most everyone else here because of my disability. The list of things I'm not allowed to do for the protection of others is quite long. But I don't feel less free. Not at all.

And maybe that's the thing - my understanding of freedom comes from a completely different life experience. My understanding of the difference between tyranny and vigilance comes from those experiences. I wouldn't wish the crucible I've been through on any of you, but the understanding these experiences have given me have been invaluable in pushing through the tough times.

Thanks for helping me thinkb through that. I appreciate it.
Click to expand...

My grandfather served in WWII. If he were alive today, I can say with absolute certainty he would not equate anything that was deemed necessary during the war with the tyranny of Covid 19 power grabbers.
 
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#86,649
#86,649
Orangeburst said:
Only because we have suppossedly free money. One day the bankers will make a collection call and everything the savers saved or invested will go down the crapper. Then off with their heads. We are in trouble.
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Been wondering about this. If we can just print money, why is the country even in debt to begin with. Just print up a nice bank roll and pay off our deficit and foreign loans.
 
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#86,650
#86,650
AshG said:
And a high risk of permanent heart damage. And/or permanent neurological damage. And/or permanent lung scarring. So many legitimate, documented, acute or chronic side effects that greatly diminish quality of life that don't fit into the binary live/die narrative.

You must not know any long haulers, either.
Click to expand...

I think those side effects are also quite rare. Do you really think CJP and CRB will have heart damage? Those things effect the ones that had serious symptoms and serious symptoms are rare.

I agree with you that the virus should be avoided but we're not looking at a virus like AIDS or polio here.
 
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