LGB vs T

#77
#77
Rasputin_Vol said:
Layperson?
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You or me. Someone not actively involved in the process of research.

Nowadays we can hit up JSTOR or scholar.Google.com or a University library search engine and get ahold of the documentation fairly easily. In the 1980s and before, you had to know it existed and request library transfers.
 
#78
#78
AshG said:
You or me. Someone not actively involved in the process of research.

Nowadays we can hit up JSTOR or scholar.Google.com or a University library search engine and get ahold of the documentation fairly easily. In the 1980s and before, you had to know it existed and request library transfers.
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So it goes back to academia... just what I figured.

Maybe you should ask that plumber or brick mason what a "boy" or "girl" is...
 
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#80
#80
AshG said:
You or me. Someone not actively involved in the process of research.

Nowadays we can hit up JSTOR or scholar.Google.com or a University library search engine and get ahold of the documentation fairly easily. In the 1980s and before, you had to know it existed and request library transfers.
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I used to work with a guy that used to regale us "lay persons" with his bar room escapades with his fellow "intellectuals". You remind me of him.
 
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#81
#81
C-south said:
It’s hilarious you always fall back on something pertaining to academia when common knowledge is more than enough. It’s like you’ve never had a job or real life experiences outside of that bubble. Not everything requires some bs study or a piece of paper saying you squeaked through the system of indoctrination.
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He just can't help himself...
 
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#82
#82
VolStrom said:
I used to work with a guy that used to regale us "lay persons" with his bar room escapades with his fellow "intellectuals". You remind me of him.
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Then I've done a poor job of drawing the line separating my personal and work selves.
 
#83
#83
AshG said:
If I asked a layperson, sure. And that's ok.
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Again, what amount of these characteristics you mentioned earlier is enough to denote a person as male or female?

When genitalia and chromosomes are supposedly not enough to determine sex & gender, then what is?

What is the threshold of these characteristics to adequately determine if a person is a man or woman?

If a trans woman has XY chromosomes and male genitalia, does that denote them as male or female? If you argue it requires hormones, then does a non-trans man with abnormally high estrogen and low-testosterone count as female?

What is the clear and distinct demarcation line where you can say someone is male or female?

As chimeric genitalia and XXY chromosome mutations are typically rare instances, that doesn’t answer the question of how someone who is XY with a penis can claim they are female. That argument is a red herring if there ever were one.

Your argument was basically this:

1. There exists individuals who possess chromosomal genetic mutations and abnormal phenotypical expression of genitalia.
2. Thus, there are gray areas with regards to easily defining sex in some cases.
3. Therefore, individuals WITHOUT such genetic abnormalities, but who DO possess XY chromosome with clearly expressed male genitalia can thusly identify as female.

That argument is clearly broken in so many ways. For one, the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises.
 
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#85
#85
OrangeEtBlanc said:
Again, what amount of these characteristics you mentioned earlier is enough to denote a person as male or female?

When genitalia and chromosomes are supposedly not enough to determine sex & gender, then what is?

What is the threshold of these characteristics to adequately determine if a person is a man or woman?

If a trans woman has XY chromosomes and male genitalia, does that denote them as male or female? If you argue it requires hormones, then does a non-trans man with abnormally high estrogen and low-testosterone count as female?

What is the clear and distinct demarcation line where you can say someone is male or female?

As chimeric genitalia and XXY chromosome mutations are typically rare instances, that doesn’t answer the question of how someone who is XY with a penis can claim they are female. That argument is a red herring if there ever were one.

Your argument was basically this:

1. There exists individuals who possess chromosomal genetic mutations and abnormal phenotypical expression of genitalia.
2. Thus, there are gray areas with regards to easily defining sex in some cases.
3. Therefore, individuals WITHOUT such genetic abnormalities, but who DO possess XY chromosome with clearly expressed male genitalia can thusly identify as female.
That argument is clearly broken in so many ways. For one, the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises.
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He doesn't want an honest conversation. He started off in this thread by trying to speak for the 1% of individuals, or the exceptions to the rule. That opens the door for him to make a dishonest attempt to discredit any classical ideas about what is a "boy" or a "girl".

AshG said:
So what are people who are born with both, or neither? What are people who have externalized chimerism?
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So we need to bend over backwards to accommodate the exceptions and make the other 99% fit in with the rules set for the 1%. It is a deliberate attempt to corrupt the discussion.
 
#88
#88
Rasputin_Vol said:
Within a majority of your arguments, you appeal to authority when it comes to academia. I rarely see you appeal to common sense.
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Common sense is subjective and largely socially imparted and relevant. In much of Asia, it is common sense to wear a mask during flu season or when you don't feel well. In Italy, it is common sense that you don't open train windows because everyone knows drafts cause colds at any temperature.

It's not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to tangibility. Measurability. Testability.
 
#89
#89
Septic said:
ok
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I typically specialize more in Philosophy of Mind, regarding issues like consciousness, personhood, and free will vs determinism. Big fan of Dennett, Nagel, Chalmers, Searle, Koch, Tononi, and Goff. Really interested in Integrated Information Theory with respect to consciousness. Although, I often enjoy a good study of Nietzsche and that cantankerous Nihilist Arthur Schopenhauer. John Rawls is a fave in political philosophy; the “veil of ignorance” was very influential on me. Of course, a lot of my undergrad was also focused on Medieval Philosophy such as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Al-Ghazali, Ibn-Rushd, and Maimonides.

Yeah, my Bachelor’s degree was in Philosophy & Religion and my Master’s was in Education. I have continued my lifelong education in Philosophy even apart from pursuing more degrees.

So, “ok” to that.
 
#90
#90
AshG said:
Common sense is subjective and largely socially imparted and relevant. In much of Asia, it is common sense to wear a mask during flu season or when you don't feel well. In Italy, it is common sense that you don't open train windows because everyone knows drafts cause colds at any temperature.

It's not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to tangibility. Measurability. Testability.
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I thought you were a music teacher, I didn't know you were a Virologist.
 
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#92
#92
Rasputin_Vol said:
He doesn't want an honest conversation. He started off in this thread by trying to speak for the 1% of individuals, or the exceptions to the rule. That opens the door for him to make a dishonest attempt to discredit any classical ideas about what is a "boy" or a "girl".
Click to expand...

I do want an honest conversation. Brave Volunteer and InVOLuntary have been extremely honest and not beat around the bush about their feelings.

So we need to bend over backwards to accommodate the exceptions and make the other 99% fit in with the rules set for the 1%. It is a deliberate attempt to corrupt the discussion.
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I'll be as honest and clear as Brave Volunteer and InVOLuntary. I don't trust people to be kind to those who are different. I don't trust people to bother trying to understand people who are different. I've been bullied my whole life for my size and my social troubles and, since 2013, for my medical issues. Very few people stood up for me in conversations like this. Someone here needs to stand up for them.
 
#94
#94
Rasputin_Vol said:
In the old days, it was treated as a mental disorder. It s politically incorrect to say that today, but how many of these trans-people are likely suffering from a mental condition, yet the politics of the day will not allow them to receive the help that they need?
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In the old days, they treated some mental disorders by drilling a hole in your skull, they thought bleeding or vomiting could cure mental illness. They also used to put people into insulin comas because they thought it could fix mental illness. And don't forget inducing seizures and the lobotomy.

Point being, **** changes as society progresses. Its not always about being PC.
 
#95
#95
K-town Vol Fan said:
In the old days, they treated some mental disorders by drilling a hole in your skull, they thought bleeding or vomiting could cure mental illness. They also used to put people into insulin comas because they thought it could fix mental illness. And don't forget inducing seizures and the lobotomy.

Point being, **** changes as society progresses. Its not always about being PC.
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I went there. Not as kindly as you, but I did. It didn't go well.
 
#96
#96
Rasputin_Vol said:
Really, it isn't more complex than this. Anyone that tries to argue for exceptions is trying to lead you towards perversion...

Sure, there are going to be medical expectations, and I think those are special situations that need to be uniquely dealt with. But anything else falls into either the "boys" line or "girls" line. It really is that simple. I'm glad to know that there are LGBs that are at least openly acknowledging this.
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Agree with everything you said.

If someone wants to make the decision to tell people that they are one sex when they are clearly the other sex, then that is their decision to do so. That's fine, they can choose to live how they want. That decision doesn't make what they say true at all, and it also doesn't entitle them to anything such as being able to compete in sporting events with people who are biologically opposite of them.
 
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#97
#97
If find the point in the OPs op that if gender isn't defined then the basis for straight, gay, lesbian, bi etc is meaningless interesting. I agree that sexual preference is distinct from gender identity.
 
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