LGB vs T

#126
#126
hog88 said:
The difference is I like my penis and have no desire to wear makeup, plus I have a beard and enough hair on my ass to weave an Indian rug.
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I get that. But he kept his penis too.

So what the hell does that make him in 2021?

Just a cross dresser?
 
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#129
#129
hog88 said:
Well my original post was meant to be smartass but yeah, if Jenner still has his dong he’s just a crossdresser
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Most of your posts are funny.
They all aren’t gonna be winners 🤣
 
#130
#130
AshG said:
So what are people who are born with both, or neither? What are people who have externalized chimerism?
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They are hermaphrodites or have birth defects. We don’t categorize people who are born color blind, deaf, blind, etc as a different gender or spectrum. We easily say they have a genetic defect and we treat it as such.
 
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#132
#132
OrangeEtBlanc said:
Having spent much time thinking philosophically about the transgender debate, I wanted to share my thoughts with VolNation concerning this current societal issue.

The first thing I want to state is that I have nothing against trans people. I worked with a couple, and they were quite nice individuals. The following philosophical argument I am making is not anti-trans, but more about how the debate is framed by the media, especially social media like Twitter. There are certain distinctions I feel must be made in order to foster a more productive dialogue concerning transgenderism.

I entitled this thread LGB vs T because, I argue, there is currently a fundamental distinction between these groups, which are: “preference” versus “identity.”

Lesbian, gay, and bi-sexual people possess a certain sexual preference for a particular group of people—namely, those of the same sex, or of both sexes.

Preferences, like opinions, are based on the feelings of the subject. One cannot argue that another’s preferences are not true.

For instance, if I say “my favorite color is blue,” another cannot argue “no, your favorite color is red!” My preference of blue over red is not something dependent on propositional truths based on the laws of logic. While our preferences are based on the physical laws of reality that govern our brains, preferences, in and of themselves, are not expressing absolute fact external to our likes.***

The difference between LGB vs T is that transgenderism is not relying on the notion of preference, but that of identity. I hear all the time on social media “trans women ARE women.” This is a very different statement from someone stating “I am gay.” The sentence “I am gay” implies that the subject fit the identity descriptors of the predicate “gay,” which is to typically be a male homosexual, having sexual preference towards men. Thus, “I am gay” is an equivalent statement to “I am a male who has a sexual preference for the same sex.”

Contrast this with the statement “I am a woman.” This sentence denotes that subject fit the identity descriptors for the term “woman.”

This is where transgenderism, as it currently publicizes itself, totally goes off the rails.

In all of the pro-trans articles I have read, they are unable (or, more likely, unwilling) to give concrete identity descriptors for what constitutes being a “man” or “woman.” Not one article I have read in the past two years has cared to define the most fundamental terms.

Thus, when they make the identity statement “I am a woman” they fail to provide the corresponding descriptors to make the equivalence.

What I often hear and read is the notion of the “gender spectrum.” This spectrum seems to have so little evidence in its favor, that one might say it doesn’t exist...

Let us consider something that is a scientifically-proven spectrum—light. When defracted, white light produces its rainbow spectrum with all its attending colors from Infra-red, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, and ultra-violet.

Now, each color, though existing on a real spectrum, has certain features which demarcate it from the other colors. Blue has a particular wave-length, while red has yet another wave-length. These range of wave-lengths provide demonstrable basis for discrimination between the colors.

With transgenderism, the claim is that there exists a spectrum with absolutely no attributes that demarcate the differences between the sexes. It is roughly the equivalent of someone arguing that blue and red are the same because they exist on the same spectrum.

Going back to preference vs identity: With preference, one can state “my favorite color is blue” without argument. But, with identity, one cannot say “Blue is red!” without argument, as this requires a propositional identity statement using defined descriptors.

Transgenderism, as currently defined, has argued itself into a illogical, irrational, reality-denying hole.

Not only that, but the “ground-rules” that transgenderism is using COMPLETELY UPENDS the LGBT movement.

If there are no absolute defining characteristics which differentiate between men & women, then how could ANYONE be gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual? All of those terms necessitate the defined existence of the sexes.

If I were to say “I am a gay man, but I only find women sexually attractive,” that would be a contradiction in terms, as the descriptors of each are inherently contradictory. But, without recognizing distinct descriptors for “man” and “woman” that statement is logically coherent...by saying absolutely nothing.

Yet, the trans activists will argue “Trans women are women,” but make an identity statement devoid of both subject and predicate descriptors.

By arguing that gender doesn’t exist, trans activists have destroyed the logical foundation for the rest of the LGBT. Even other LGB activists and feminists have noticed this problem and are trying to speak out against it.

The way forward:

Trans activists MUST get away from using identity statements as the basis for their claims.

Instead of “I am a woman,” or “I am a man,” they should instead say:

“I prefer to live my life as if I were a woman/man.”

This removes their arguments out of the realm of identity statements and into that of preference. Now, to what extent society should allow them to live in accordance with their preference is a different argument altogether that I will not touch upon here.

“I want to live like a woman” is different from “I AM a woman.”

One is a statement of identity, the other, a statement of preference.

TL;DR: No one can argue with you if Blue is your favorite color, but one can argue if you say “Blue is Red!” Even spectrums have defined limits on what makes something what it is. Trans activists should move from identity statements “Blue is red”/“Trans women are women,” and instead focus on preference “I prefer to live as a women.”

***A brief note on preference and facts dependent on physical law: No one chooses their preferences, as they are determined by internal & external influences outside of our control. If I eat vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, I don’t “choose” which one I actually like better—that is caused by the mental interactions within my brain. However, while preference is a mental activity caused by physical stimuli, it can be argued that a person’s preference is an example of physical law. Let’s say we find the neurons that control our favorite color. A certain “coding” of those neurons may define/describe what a person’s favorite color is. In this way, preference is not merely in the world of reality-independent opinions, but does exist in the world of fact. That doesn’t make that preference true in an absolute sense as in “Blue is the best color!” But, it does provide a link between our mental opinions and the external world.

Just been doing a lot of pondering on this issue lately and wanted to share.

As a Philosopher, I am constantly re-evaluating my thoughts, beliefs, and biases. I would be more than happy to read your rebuttals, critiques, and other feedback. Thank you.
Click to expand...
You make a compelling argument but you know the LGBT… will never accept/adopt it because if it’s a “preference’” then the behavior is a choice which goes against the current argument that they are “born this way, and have no other choice”
 
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#134
#134
hog88 said:
Well my original post was meant to be smartass but yeah, if Jenner still has his dong he’s just a crossdresser
Click to expand...

I know it was but I am honestly just really losing track anymore lol. Ok so he’s a cross dresser. Just trying to confirm. I don’t wannn offend anyone, ya know.
 
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#135
#135
Wireless1 said:
You make a compelling argument but you know the LGBT… will never accept/adopt it because if it’s a “preference’” then the behavior is a choice which goes against the current argument that they are “born this way, and have no other choice”
Click to expand...

I think for most, it isn't a choice. But I do know one personally for whom it was a long, slow slide into the lifestyle. Started as a caretaker relationship (her wife is blind, illness in early adulthood), grew into a deep friendship, then "I can think of worse people to spend the rest of my life with."
 
#142
#142
AshG said:
41% of all trans and gender queer individuals attempt suicide at some point in their lives. Survivors and notes left by the deceased point towards significant bullying and harassment, rejection by family and former social groups, inappropriate professional treatment, and dehumanization as the mitigating factors.

There is even a phenomenon called Trans Broken Arm Syndrome where trans and genderqueer individuals face medical professionals who incorrectly attempt to attribute unrelated issues (ie a broken arm from a fall) on the individual's gender identity.

I'd hate to be a trans individual who stumbled on this forum and found myself being talked about all a sick person, a deviant, or even as a thing instead of a human.
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Again using my known case study of psych patient male at peninsula who believed he was a woman and having period because he bled from his anus and thought he could be pregnant? Would you not say that was a delusional thought
 
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#144
#144
Would I be right in saying that a good portion of beliefs in this situation have to do with our personal comforts and the desire on our end to not have to deal with issues outside of our personal comfort zones?
 
#145
#145
Wireless1 said:
You make a compelling argument but you know the LGBT… will never accept/adopt it because if it’s a “preference’” then the behavior is a choice which goes against the current argument that they are “born this way, and have no other choice”
Click to expand...

And that is total horseshit. People in those situations DO have a choice! It may not be a choice they LIKE but a choice they have none the less! This isn't the same thing as height, eye color, skin color, hair color, physical handicaps, what family you're born into, etc. We are talking about behaviors. Lifestyles. Everyone has a choice. Imo advocating for this line of thinking is very dangerous because where do you draw the line? Are we going to suddenly stop locking away pedophiles because they claim they were "born this way and have no other choice"? What about rapists? Serial killers? Where does it stop? What if you're a chronic masterbator? Is it going to suddenly be acceptable to yank on it or flick your bean in public because "they have no other choice"? Everyone has certain proclivities that if acted upon would be (and should be) considered wrong, unacceptable behavior by society. Fortunately most normal people understand this and deny themselves these impulses.

AshG said:
Would I be right in saying that a good portion of beliefs in this situation have to do with our personal comforts and the desire on our end to not have to deal with issues outside of our personal comfort zones?
Click to expand...

Imo the onus is on the 1% to figure out how to function and fit in with the other 99% of normal society. It's not the job of the other 99% to move the goal posts as to what they know is mentally abnormal so as not to hurt the feelings of the 1%. Now, I'm not advocating anything irrational like harassment, bullying, shaming, etc. People who suffer from these kinds of abnormalities deserve dignity too. But I will NOT accept this pseudo science movement where they are trying to convince people that concepts of male and female are non-biological, social constructs and that we should not define people as "boys" or "girls" because everyone is on a freaking gender spectrum.. GTFO with that nonsense! I am not going to play pretend biology for you just to make you feel better about your issues.
 
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#146
#146
Rasputin_Vol said:
Basically to condense all of this, the OP and the video I posted are of the opinion that LGBs are upset at Ts because they are making a mockery of their movement by blurring gender and making it hard for the mainstream society to take their arguments seriously.
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No one saw this coming.......
 
#147
#147
Some people have mentioned “choice” in this thread, which raises the connection to the ideas of “free will” vs “determinism.”

I am a determinist, so I don’t believe anyone has what is called “libertarian free will,” which is the ability “to have chosen otherwise.”

Philosophers are typically divided into 3 camps with respect to free will: Libertarians (not related to the political party), Compatiblists, and Hard Determinists.

Libertarians believe people have the ability to have chosen otherwise than they did.

Compatibilists argue that all choices are determined, but an action is considered “free” when it is in accordance with the desires of the agent (i.e. not externally forced to do something).

Hard determinists argue that all choices are determined and free will is purely illusory.

I fall somewhere between the Compatibilists & Hard Determinists.

Now, with respect to LGBT, when I say “preference,” I was not meaning to imply that it is a “choice” for them to be homosexual/bi-sexual/gender dysmorphic.

I am a straight male, so my orientation is heterosexual. I don’t “choose” to be attracted to women, I simply am.

Think of your own preferences in life: Did you choose your favorite color? Your favorite beer or liquor? Your favorite candy bar? Or, did your preference arise internally by a process outside of your control?

I would argue all choices are determined by internal & external causes that ultimately make the “choice” for us.

Let me give a little hypothetical thought-experiment:

A friend offers you 3 candy bars: a Milky Way, a Snickers, and a Reeses peanut butter cup.

Let’s say you “choose” the Milky Way. But why? This “choice” was the effect of numerous conscious and sub-conscious reasonings.

Perhaps you ate a Snickers as a child and mildly choked on the peanuts, and ever since then you had a slight aversion to Snickers.

Perhaps you had an ex who loved Reeses candy, and you subconsciously relate that to them.

Perhaps you had a sweet grandmother who gave you Milky Ways as a child and their flavor reminds you of good times past.

All these attendant factors would affect which candy you chose, with or without your conscious awareness. They are the causes or reasons behind your choice, which ultimately determine it. The scenario I gave focused on external influences, but our internal or genetic influences may be even more important in determining our actions.

This is the same with straight people or LGBT: we all have a host of internal & external influences which ultimately determine our preferences, and also our actions, for us.
 
#148
#148
AshG said:
Would I be right in saying that a good portion of beliefs in this situation have to do with our personal comforts and the desire on our end to not have to deal with issues outside of our personal comfort zones?
Click to expand...
No. Only your and others of your association think this. Sometimes the right and wrong of things don't have metaphysical answers.
 
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#149
#149
OrangeEtBlanc said:
Having spent much time thinking philosophically about the transgender debate, I wanted to share my thoughts with VolNation concerning this current societal issue.

The first thing I want to state is that I have nothing against trans people. I worked with a couple, and they were quite nice individuals. The following philosophical argument I am making is not anti-trans, but more about how the debate is framed by the media, especially social media like Twitter. There are certain distinctions I feel must be made in order to foster a more productive dialogue concerning transgenderism.

I entitled this thread LGB vs T because, I argue, there is currently a fundamental distinction between these groups, which are: “preference” versus “identity.”

Lesbian, gay, and bi-sexual people possess a certain sexual preference for a particular group of people—namely, those of the same sex, or of both sexes.

Preferences, like opinions, are based on the feelings of the subject. One cannot argue that another’s preferences are not true.

For instance, if I say “my favorite color is blue,” another cannot argue “no, your favorite color is red!” My preference of blue over red is not something dependent on propositional truths based on the laws of logic. While our preferences are based on the physical laws of reality that govern our brains, preferences, in and of themselves, are not expressing absolute fact external to our likes.***

The difference between LGB vs T is that transgenderism is not relying on the notion of preference, but that of identity. I hear all the time on social media “trans women ARE women.” This is a very different statement from someone stating “I am gay.” The sentence “I am gay” implies that the subject fit the identity descriptors of the predicate “gay,” which is to typically be a male homosexual, having sexual preference towards men. Thus, “I am gay” is an equivalent statement to “I am a male who has a sexual preference for the same sex.”

Contrast this with the statement “I am a woman.” This sentence denotes that subject fit the identity descriptors for the term “woman.”

This is where transgenderism, as it currently publicizes itself, totally goes off the rails.

In all of the pro-trans articles I have read, they are unable (or, more likely, unwilling) to give concrete identity descriptors for what constitutes being a “man” or “woman.” Not one article I have read in the past two years has cared to define the most fundamental terms.

Thus, when they make the identity statement “I am a woman” they fail to provide the corresponding descriptors to make the equivalence.

What I often hear and read is the notion of the “gender spectrum.” This spectrum seems to have so little evidence in its favor, that one might say it doesn’t exist...

Let us consider something that is a scientifically-proven spectrum—light. When defracted, white light produces its rainbow spectrum with all its attending colors from Infra-red, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, and ultra-violet.

Now, each color, though existing on a real spectrum, has certain features which demarcate it from the other colors. Blue has a particular wave-length, while red has yet another wave-length. These range of wave-lengths provide demonstrable basis for discrimination between the colors.

With transgenderism, the claim is that there exists a spectrum with absolutely no attributes that demarcate the differences between the sexes. It is roughly the equivalent of someone arguing that blue and red are the same because they exist on the same spectrum.

Going back to preference vs identity: With preference, one can state “my favorite color is blue” without argument. But, with identity, one cannot say “Blue is red!” without argument, as this requires a propositional identity statement using defined descriptors.

Transgenderism, as currently defined, has argued itself into a illogical, irrational, reality-denying hole.

Not only that, but the “ground-rules” that transgenderism is using COMPLETELY UPENDS the LGBT movement.

If there are no absolute defining characteristics which differentiate between men & women, then how could ANYONE be gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual? All of those terms necessitate the defined existence of the sexes.

If I were to say “I am a gay man, but I only find women sexually attractive,” that would be a contradiction in terms, as the descriptors of each are inherently contradictory. But, without recognizing distinct descriptors for “man” and “woman” that statement is logically coherent...by saying absolutely nothing.

Yet, the trans activists will argue “Trans women are women,” but make an identity statement devoid of both subject and predicate descriptors.

By arguing that gender doesn’t exist, trans activists have destroyed the logical foundation for the rest of the LGBT. Even other LGB activists and feminists have noticed this problem and are trying to speak out against it.

The way forward:

Trans activists MUST get away from using identity statements as the basis for their claims.

Instead of “I am a woman,” or “I am a man,” they should instead say:

“I prefer to live my life as if I were a woman/man.”

This removes their arguments out of the realm of identity statements and into that of preference. Now, to what extent society should allow them to live in accordance with their preference is a different argument altogether that I will not touch upon here.

“I want to live like a woman” is different from “I AM a woman.”

One is a statement of identity, the other, a statement of preference.

TL;DR: No one can argue with you if Blue is your favorite color, but one can argue if you say “Blue is Red!” Even spectrums have defined limits on what makes something what it is. Trans activists should move from identity statements “Blue is red”/“Trans women are women,” and instead focus on preference “I prefer to live as a women.”

***A brief note on preference and facts dependent on physical law: No one chooses their preferences, as they are determined by internal & external influences outside of our control. If I eat vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, I don’t “choose” which one I actually like better—that is caused by the mental interactions within my brain. However, while preference is a mental activity caused by physical stimuli, it can be argued that a person’s preference is an example of physical law. Let’s say we find the neurons that control our favorite color. A certain “coding” of those neurons may define/describe what a person’s favorite color is. In this way, preference is not merely in the world of reality-independent opinions, but does exist in the world of fact. That doesn’t make that preference true in an absolute sense as in “Blue is the best color!” But, it does provide a link between our mental opinions and the external world.

Just been doing a lot of pondering on this issue lately and wanted to share.

As a Philosopher, I am constantly re-evaluating my thoughts, beliefs, and biases. I would be more than happy to read your rebuttals, critiques, and other feedback. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Our human nature continues to degrade, the mental illness of trans thought is a further decline of society and a continuing example that sin continues to erode society. It is a horrible precedence we are setting by praising this illness.

These people have you fight their dna for the rest of their lives just because they're lying to themselves. They have to get every morning and convince themselves that they are the opposite of God's design.
 
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#150
#150
Volaholic320 said:
Our human nature continues to degrade, the mental illness of trans thought is a further decline of society and a continuing example that sin continues to erode society. It is a horrible precedence we are setting by praising this illness.

These people have you fight their dna for the rest of their lives just because they're lying to themselves. They have to get every morning and convince themselves that they are the opposite of God's design.
Click to expand...

Are you Calvinist or Arminian?
 
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