No one is Underpaid

#201
#201
DonjoVol said:
It's definitely skilled work. How many people are you responsible for feeding each year? Guarantee you a Papa John's location is responsible for thousands per year. And how many times a year do you pay for a restaurant to feed you?

Like I said it's definitely skilled work.
Click to expand...

No. No it’s not. Not remotely.

My first job was a Little Caesars at 15. By 16 I was the lead crew manager and was pulling the drawers and doing counts.

The job at a restaurant is modern day production line work. Making a pizza is not skilled.

On the line you have a dough guy, then a paste guy, then a cheese and toppings guy. This gets handed through the oven and when it comes out the other side a guy then bags it. The cashier then takes the order and rings it up at time of sale. The entire order is on a monitor and all the line does is read the monitor.

The prep guys then prepare for the next days sales.

I could teach you the job in 10 minutes, 15 if you were stoned.

Sorry……your example is bad…..
 
  • Like
Reactions: MemphisVol77, Orangeburst, Vol423 and 1 other person
#202
#202
We're circling around and around semantics. By definition, every job is skilled. The time it may take to attain those skills and the amount of skills needed may be different but now we're just splitting hairs.

I believe we should be considering assumption of risk - personal, financial, corporate, etc - as our metric. How much risk is assumed by a fast food worker vs a construction worker? How much risk is assumed by a police officer vs Walmart middle management? What value do we place on the responsibility of managing that risk?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MemphisVol77 and Wireless1
#203
#203
AshG said:
We're circling around and around semantics. By definition, every job is skilled. The time it may take to attain those skills and the amount of skills needed may be different but now we're just splitting hairs.

I believe we should be considering assumption of risk - personal, financial, corporate, etc - as our metric. How much risk is assumed by a fast food worker vs a construction worker? How much risk is assumed by a police officer vs Walmart middle management? What value do we place on the responsibility of managing that risk?
Click to expand...

What was Mozart’s assumption of risk?

Was he skilled?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MemphisVol77
#204
#204
NEO said:
No. No it’s not. Not remotely.

My first job was a Little Caesars at 15. By 16 I was the lead crew manager and was pulling the drawers and doing counts.

The job at a restaurant is modern day production line work. Making a pizza is not skilled.

On the line you have a dough guy, then a paste guy, then a cheese and toppings guy. This gets handed through the oven and when it comes out the other side a guy then bags it. The cashier then takes the order and rings it up at time of sale. The entire order is on a monitor and all the line does is read the monitor.

The prep guys then prepare for the next days sales.

I could teach you the job in 10 minutes, 15 if you were stoned.

Sorry……your example is bad…..
Click to expand...
Must have been nice to have all that help.

All those tasks require levels of skill. What happened if people called out and you couldn't get nobody in their place? You work harder and do more tasks. You provided a skilled service and people paid for. Therefore it is skilled work.
 
#205
#205
NEO said:
What was Mozart’s assumption of risk?

Was he skilled?
Click to expand...

Mozart assumed significant risk on behalf of multiple entities. His commissions brought in patrons, admissions, and notoriety to multiple concert venues across Europe. Failure to produce as either a performer, conductor, or composer would have dire repercussions on whatever entity had hired him for a performance or performance series. His work directly affected the livelihoods and reputations of a large number of people and businesses. So, yes; Mozart had a significant assumption of risk.

As for his level of skill, I'd like to see either of us at our current ages pen a composition at the same level of quality and rigor as he did before he was ten.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matt2496, hog88 and DonjoVol
#206
#206
Every job is skilled. Nobody is going to change my mind. I'll go ahead and put that out there. Anyone who wants to continue arguing is wasting their time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wireless1 and AshG
#208
#208
AshG said:
Mozart assumed significant risk on behalf of multiple entities. His commissions brought in patrons, admissions, and notoriety to multiple concert venues across Europe. Failure to produce as either a performer, conductor, or composer would have dire repercussions on whatever entity had hired him for a performance or performance series. His work directly affected the livelihoods and reputations of a large number of people and businesses. So, yes; Mozart had a significant assumption of risk.

As for his level of skill, I'd like to see either of us at our current ages pen a composition at the same level of quality and rigor as he did before he was ten.
Click to expand...

Kinda shocked you missed my point.
 
#211
#211
DonjoVol said:
Must have been nice to have all that help.

All those tasks require levels of skill. What happened if people called out and you couldn't get nobody in their place? You work harder and do more tasks. You provided a skilled service and people paid for. Therefore it is skilled work.
Click to expand...

It’s low end skilled work.

It’s work companies are replacing with robots and computers.

It takes a couple hours training to learn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77
#212
#212
VolStrom said:
I've been wanting to smoke a pizza, have a recipe you want to share?
Click to expand...

A magician never reveals his secrets……

When my wife is feeling industrious she’ll make homemade dough so I’m no help there. But really there’s not much too it. Pick out a dough you like load it to suit your tastes, the key IMO is the pizza stone. Get your pizza stone to 500-525 before you put your pizza on it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MemphisVol77 and VolStrom
#213
#213
AshG said:
I'm not. I'm more out of it than usual today.
Click to expand...


Van Gogh was highly skilled.

He took no risk as a painter because all he could do was be a painter.

He sold one painting for modern day 109.

I consider him ground breaking and him a master at his craft but the fact is placing a monetary value on him was near impossible as he was an artist that went unrecognized during his lifetime.


But in business a monetary value is set by the market and your competitors then try to lower the market value by undercutting cost.

One way to undercut cost is by reducing the level of skill needed to produce the item which originally was done by Kellogg’s I believe when he began mass producing corn flakes.

My basic point is the goal is to remove the skilled aspect to get the production cost as low as possible and we have nearly achieved this with cars and food preparations due to automation.
 
#214
#214
IluvdoubleD's said:
View attachment 418847
Click to expand...
Business failures are very visible and public. Many politicians never even work a real job and their failures are easily hidden, especially with a compliant media support structure . And when their failures are exposed, they can always blame someone else. There is no “audit” for political performance and the books are easily cooked. How else to you explain the insanely high re-election rates of incumbent Congress Members, most of whom are clearly incompetent and unable to tie their own shoes without a staff of aides to do it for them?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MemphisVol77 and NEO
#217
#217
A wage is a price, just like any other price, and it is set by supply and demand.

When you get down to it, nobody is actually paid on the basis of how hard they work, how difficult their job is, or how "important to society" their job is. If there are not many people who have your skills/expertise/ability at something, and there is a lot of demand for those skills/expertise/ability, you will make a lot of money. It does not matter if you are a reality TV star or curing kids of cancer.

Do you want to know why teachers don't really make all that much money? It is not because they get 3 months off during the year. It is because there is a pretty large pool of labor that is willing and able to do the job, and a relatively constant level of demand for people with those skills. My wife has a friend who is a schoolteacher, and she said that when a school had a couple of openings for early childhood teacher spots a few years ago (that don't come open very often), something like 200 people applied for 2 or 3 positions. Lots of supply, not all that much demand. The supply/demand dynamics in the job market for teachers are not conducive to high wages.

On the flip side, an oncologist does not make the high wages they do because the job is important to society, or because they work long and inconvenient hours. There are relatively few people with those skills, and considerable demand for people with those skills. Hence, those people are able to charge more for their labor.
 
Last edited:
#219
#219
DonjoVol said:
Okay if you worked those types of jobs when you were younger then you should realize they are skilled jobs. It seems to me your are putting an emphasis on skilled jobs requiring an education. Simply not the point.

You think the managers at a restaurant aren't required to follow laws or have specialized training? Many full service restaurants require managers to have bachelor's degree. And for all we know that server or cook is working to become an architect.
Click to expand...
To your first, not even a little skilled. My job was predicated on the fact that I was cheap labor easily replaced once I earned justified higher pay.

I wasnt a manager. That is skilled. Havent seen anyone but you bring up managers as unskilled.

And I have never said skilled=educated. I pointed to my specific case, and even expanded upon education. Yet another case of you having to completely change arguments to justify your outrage.

I brought up prerequisites, which could be anything. The only prerequisite I met for my early jobs was that I was cheap and could show up on time. I was able to perform my unskilled job(s) on day one to a satisfactory level that would have kept me employed. I didnt bother to count the prerequisites I listed for architecture, but that was just to get the title. Doing the job requires far more. Most jobs are that way, hardly anyone gets to do just one thing. That doesnt mean it's a skilled job.

And for the record I definitely dont consider architecture all that special on the skilled "continuum". Plenty of people on this board far more skilled than I am.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77, MemphisVol77, Vol423 and 1 other person
#221
#221
LouderVol said:
To your first, not even a little skilled. My job was predicated on the fact that I was cheap labor easily replaced once I earned justified higher pay.

I wasnt a manager. That is skilled. Havent seen anyone but you bring up managers as unskilled.

And I have never said skilled=educated. I pointed to my specific case, and even expanded upon education. Yet another case of you having to completely change arguments to justify your outrage.

I brought up prerequisites, which could be anything. The only prerequisite I met for my early jobs was that I was cheap and could show up on time. I was able to perform my unskilled job(s) on day one to a satisfactory level that would have kept me employed. I didnt bother to count the prerequisites I listed for architecture, but that was just to get the title. Doing the job requires far more. Most jobs are that way, hardly anyone gets to do just one thing. That doesnt mean it's a skilled job.

And for the record I definitely dont consider architecture all that special on the skilled "continuum". Plenty of people on this board far more skilled than I am.
Click to expand...
I never bought up managers as unskilled. Other people did. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Well I guess keep that unskilled mentality in mind next time your out enjoying a meal at a restaurant. As a matter of fact be sure to tell those crew members exactly what you think of them. If you go to church share these same feelings with your pastor as well.
 
#222
#222
LouderVol said:
Look down on them? I dont, and have been very careful in my wording that you ignore. I specified the job. I did hotel breakfast and landscaping working 5 to 9 most summers to get where I am. Because I knew the JOB(s) I had wasnt good enough, it's not what I wanted. I wanted a better JOB. I have not once even hinted that the PERSON working any other job is less than me. I even went out of my way to criticize many of the PEOPLE I share a JOB with, while talking up PEOPLE with a different JOB.

My office has an entire library of codes and laws we have to keep up with. So much so that we have taken it digital. Including the health code you bring up. Then there are the industry standards, environmental concerns, other accreditations the client may want.
Click to expand...
You just have to realize that it doesn't matter what you say to DonjoVol. If you don't agree that every single person in the world is a skilled worker (despite the fact that is a socialist fantasy land concept), he is going to state repeatedly that you look down on everybody else and think they're beneath you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77 and MemphisVol77
#223
#223
DonjoVol said:
Okay if you worked those types of jobs when you were younger then you should realize they are skilled jobs.
Click to expand...
Wrong. It is precisely because many of us worked in those types of jobs before we even had a high school diploma that we know they aren't skilled jobs.
 
Last edited:
#224
#224
DonjoVol said:
I never bought up managers as unskilled. Other people did. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Well I guess keep that unskilled mentality in mind next time your out enjoying a meal at a restaurant. As a matter of fact be sure to tell those crew members exactly what you think of them. If you go to church share these same feelings with your pastor as well.
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying they aren’t hard workers.

Think you are confusing hard with skilled.

Digging ditches is hard work. Not very skilled though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77, MemphisVol77 and Vol423
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top