Now the woke left reaches a new milestone of arrogance

#77
#77
DinkinFlicka said:
You're probably the most blatant example, lol.


I challenge you to quote any post of mine that echoes irrational fear.
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And I am still waiting on your answer as to of it is possible for ANY composition by a Dead white European male to be sufficiently inclusive of African sensibilities WITHOUT modification. Is musical relevance independent of cultural origination?
 
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#78
#78
Grand Vol said:
I'm not entirely positive this is really "woke" nor really worthy enough for an outrage thread...
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I think you are missing the point. Both left and right thrive on outrage at the other. Granted, this is a rather silly one. But you can't deny OP his right to be offended at revising music and trying to link that to something he wants others to be outraged by.

It's called "feigned incredulity." A pastime of certain posters here.

Of course, every cover band of all time now had better watch out since their take of some rock classic is now bound to elicit some outrage.
 
#79
#79
lawgator1 said:
I think you are missing the point. Both left and right thrive on outrage at the other. Granted, this is a rather silly one. But you can't deny OP his right to be offended at revising music and trying to link that to something he wants others to be outraged by.

It's called "feigned incredulity." A pastime of certain posters here.

Of course, every cover band of all time now had better watch out since their take of some rock classic is now bound to elicit some outrage.
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Nein nein nein. Musical „cover bands“ never pretend to be the real thing. A cover is a tribute. A rewrite is an attempt to say that the original creator left something necessary unsaid and that YOU are more qualified to say it by „correcting“ their oversight. Beethoven’s Ninth requires no more additions or modifications just as Shakespeare requires no rewritten dialogue or additional scenes. It amazes me that people can’t see the distinction
 
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#81
#81
lawgator1 said:
I think you are missing the point. Both left and right thrive on outrage at the other. Granted, this is a rather silly one. But you can't deny OP his right to be offended at revising music and trying to link that to something he wants others to be outraged by.

It's called "feigned incredulity." A pastime of certain posters here.

Of course, every cover band of all time now had better watch out since their take of some rock classic is now bound to elicit some outrage.
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You making a point about outrage threads is really rich...
 
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#82
#82
OrangeTsar said:
Nein nein nein. Musical „cover bands“ never pretend to be the real thing. A cover is a tribute. A rewrite is an attempt to say that the original creator left something necessary unsaid and that YOU are more qualified to say it by „correcting“ their oversight. Beethoven’s Ninth requires no more additions or modifications just as Shakespeare requires no rewritten dialogue or additional scenes. It amazes me that people can’t see the distinction
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#83
#83
OrangeTsar said:
And I am still waiting on your answer as to of it is possible for ANY composition by a Dead white European male to be sufficiently inclusive of African sensibilities WITHOUT modification. Is musical relevance independent of cultural origination?
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You wouldn't have made a thread if they chose to incorporate bagpipes and accordions. It's as simple as that.


To answer your question, no art is independent of cultural origin. However, seeing as art has been shared across many cultures, it would be a disservice not to incorporate other cultures into works of art.
 
#85
#85
OrangeTsar said:
What next, darken the skin tone of the Mona Lisa to make it more “relevant”? When does the madness end?
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Just to hit my point home.

Your actual outrage is clear as day. You have a problem with *your* culture intermingling with a certain, very specific culture.
 
#86
#86
DinkinFlicka said:
You wouldn't have made a thread if they chose to incorporate bagpipes and accordions. It's as simple as that.


To answer your question, no art is independent of cultural origin. However, seeing as art has been shared across many cultures, it would be a disservice not to incorporate other cultures into works of art.
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Who appointed you my judge as to what I would or would not start a thread over? I would be quite upset at ANY tinkering with one of the pivotal works in the entire history of civilization. Let me know though when you see Scottish people complaining about their under representation in music and we can discuss that then?
You still haven’t answered the base question. Is it possible for any work of art produced by a dead European White male to have cultural relevance and value to an African WITHOUT modification? Yes or No.
 
#87
#87
OrangeTsar said:
Who appointed you my judge as to what I would or would not start a thread over? I would be quite upset at ANY tinkering with one of the pivotal works in the entire history of civilization. Let me know though when you see Scottish people complaining about their under representation in music and we can discuss that then?
You still haven’t answered the base question. Is it possible for any work of art produced by a dead European White male to have cultural relevance and value to an African WITHOUT modification? Yes or No.
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You wouldn't have started that thread. Not hard to extract that from your other posts ITT.

Yes, it's entirely possible. It's also possible to have more culture relevance with modification. Don't like it? Don't listen to it or attend the performance. The "discussion" you're attempting to prompt is you just venting your own aversion to certain cultures. It's pretty obvious.
 
#88
#88
DinkinFlicka said:
You wouldn't have made a thread if they chose to incorporate bagpipes and accordions. It's as simple as that.


To answer your question, no art is independent of cultural origin. However, seeing as art has been shared across many cultures, it would be a disservice not to incorporate other cultures into works of art.
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So how do you propose incorporating “other cultures” into Shakespeare? Renaissance Painting? Chinese Tang Dynasty Poetry?, the Egyptian Book of the Dead? The Epic of Gilgamesh? Why does Beethoven get picked for such incorporation?
 
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#89
#89
DinkinFlicka said:
You wouldn't have started that thread. Not hard to extract that from your other posts ITT.

Yes, it's entirely possible. It's also possible to have more culture relevance with modification. Don't like it? Don't listen to it or attend the performance. The "discussion" you're attempting to prompt is you just venting your own aversion to certain cultures. It's pretty obvious.
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What “culture” do you think I am averse to exactly? Do you think all cultures have produced music of equal quality to European Classical music? If so, please list three works of non European music that you would put in the same league as Beethoven’s Ninth.
 
#90
#90
OrangeTsar said:
So how do you propose incorporating “other cultures” into Shakespeare? Renaissance Painting? Chinese Tang Dynasty Poetry?, the Egyptian Book of the Dead? The Epic of Gilgamesh? Why does Beethoven get picked for such incorporation?
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Because music is still malleable after the completion of the original work. Can't say that about a painting or a written work.


You're drawing meaningless comparisons because your ire falls flat.
 
#91
#91
OrangeTsar said:
What “culture” do you think I am averse to exactly? Do you think all cultures have produced music of equal quality to European Classical music? If so, please list three works of non European music that you would put in the same league as Beethoven’s Ninth.
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Clearly, African culture. It's got your knickers in a bunch.

Your question is subjective and not worth answering. If I told you I believed Fela Kuti was every bit the genius Beethoven is, you would discard it.
 
#92
#92
DinkinFlicka said:
Because music is still malleable after the completion of the original work. Can't say that about a painting or a written work.


You're drawing meaningless comparisons because your ire falls flat.
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A Symphony is a written work. It has one official published edition, just the same as any Shakespeare play. Here, let me help
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies: Three-Volume Set
 
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#93
#93
DinkinFlicka said:
Clearly, African culture. It's got your knickers in a bunch.

Your question is subjective and not worth answering. If I told you I believed Fela Kuti was every bit the genius Beethoven is, you would discard it.
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As would 99.99 percent of world musicologists. 😂
 
#96
#96
OrangeTsar said:
Nein nein nein. Musical „cover bands“ never pretend to be the real thing. A cover is a tribute. A rewrite is an attempt to say that the original creator left something necessary unsaid and that YOU are more qualified to say it by „correcting“ their oversight. Beethoven’s Ninth requires no more additions or modifications just as Shakespeare requires no rewritten dialogue or additional scenes. It amazes me that people can’t see the distinction
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You have not listened to any new music have you. It is full of samples. Shakespeare has been rewritten MANY times and won oscars and golden globes. 1500 movie credits alone. Sons of Anarchy is a reimagining of Shakespeare. Moonlighting had a great version of Taming of the Shrew.

You're being the "get off my lawn" guy.
 
#97
#97
DinkinFlicka said:
As predictable as you are aloof.
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Defend your assertion then. Find some people who agree with you. I can cite dozens of not hundreds of opinions placing Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony in the upper seats of mankind’s musical pantheon.
I can assert that my Child’s stick figure drawing belongs in the same league as DiVinci’s last supper. That doesn’t make my opinion valid however
 
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#98
#98
If alive I bet Beethoven would be down with some African drums incorporated into his 9th symphony.
 
#100
#100
ClearwaterVol said:
You have not listened to any new music have you. It is full of samples. Shakespeare has been rewritten MANY times and won oscars and golden globes. 1500 movie credits alone. Sons of Anarchy is a reimagining of Shakespeare. Moonlighting had a great version of Taming of the Shrew.

You're being the "get off my lawn" guy.
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A “movie” of Shakespeare is not Shakespeare. It is a derivative work. Just as Peter Jackson’s the Lord of the Rings does not purport to be the actual Lord of the Rings. Those goalposts ain’t gonna move themselves I guess though. And yes, I listen to “new” music all the time. That Mahler guy really writes some good stuff as does Shostakovich 😉
 
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