Official "eat crow" because Butch was hired here thread

[chavisut]

No you didn't. We look to be on the same team on this one. You may need to reevaluate.

It appears some are intimating that Strong would've done a better job here and is the better coach, and they are basing it off of a couple of games.

Strong is 1-2 against Butch. I'm saying those aren't enough numbers to support either way long term.

 

[chavisut]

466–440–17 (.514) Louisville

572–555–49 (.507) Cincinnati



These are the schools all time records......What does it mean? Absolutely f'ing nothing. Like the CBJ vs Strong argument.

You're right, it does mean nothing. Maybe we can get a thread stickied with topics that are relevant so there is no more confusion.

 

[Spartacavolus]

466–440–17 (.514) Louisville

572–555–49 (.507) Cincinnati



These are the schools all time records......What does it mean? Absolutely f'ing nothing. Like the CBJ vs Strong argument.

that's the point. Comparing what the 2 hypothetically may do here in the future and arguing it like it is fact, well, it isn't surprising when you see from whom the argument is coming from.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I think CBJ did a good job at Cincy.

Just don't think 1-2 or 2-1 is enough to say one is better than the other.

I agree. I wanted CCS, by the way. Please remember, my argument is against the comment that 'CBJ as better than CCS' is "humorous". I'm not trying to build up CBJ, nor tear down CCS. But with his record, head to head, the idea that CBJ may be a better coach is anything but "humorous".

I believe that they are both quality coaches, for the record.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Head to head is not always a true measure of who is better. There are so many variables to take into account and no, three years isn't enough for a true pattern to show.

You are correct. CDD should have been given more time as 3 yrs wasn't enough time to detect a pattern.



*****warning, that was sarcasm*****

 

[butchna]

I agree. I wanted CCS, by the way. Please remember, my argument is against the comment that 'CBJ as better than CCS' is "humorous". I'm not trying to build up CBJ, nor tear down CCS. But with his record, head to head, the idea that CBJ may be a better coach is anything but "humorous".

I believe that they are both quality coaches, for the record.

I agree...the "humorous" comment generated it's intended response..I got a mental image of an extended pinky as he finished the last Pabst Blue Ribbon in that six-pack...smart fellers are so mean
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[chavisut]

You are correct. CDD should have been given more time as 3 yrs wasn't enough time to detect a pattern.



*****warning, that was sarcasm*****

You're completely twisting what I'm saying. Looking at how they fared in the conference, Strong and Butch both did well and obviously one of them has to come out ahead in three meetings. 2-1 doesn't mean it would have led to 4-2,6-3,8-4, etc...

 

[NashVol11]

that's the point. Comparing what the 2 hypothetically may do here in the future and arguing it like it is fact, well, it isn't surprising when you see from whom the argument is coming from.

This made sense. But I'll assume you're talking about Escape Goat, since he brought it up.

It appears some are intimating that Strong would've done a better job here and is the better coach, and they are basing it off of a couple of games.

Here is what my stance is based on.

Record pre-arrival
Jones: 12-1, 7-0 Big East
Strong: 4-8, 1-6 Big East

Record in last season
Jones: 10-3, Belk Bowl
Strong: 11-2, Sugar Bowl

Record vs. Big East
Jones: 12-9 (when inheriting a team that had gone 17-4 the three seasons prior)
Strong: 13-8 (inheriting 5-16)

Record vs. teams with 8+ wins
Jones: 2-13
Strong: 8-4

You're certainly free to think what you want to think, but to me it's pretty obvious.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You're completely twisting what I'm saying. Looking at how they fared in the conference, Strong and Butch both did well and obviously one of them has to come out ahead in three meetings. 2-1 doesn't mean it would have led to 4-2,6-3,8-4, etc...

Funny how so many were defending the coach you used to make your point just a year ago.

I have stated in this thread that I wanted Strong as coach. I would still love to have him. I have come to believe CBJ may be his equal. He might prove to be better long term. We shall see.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You're completely twisting what I'm saying.

that's what I do.

 

[butchna]

I have stated in this thread that I wanted Strong as coach. I would still love to have him. I have come to believe CBJ may be his equal. He might prove to be better long term. We shall see.

Yaayyy!....somebody won...right?
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[hohenfelsvol]

Strong is 1-2 against Butch. I'm saying those aren't enough numbers to support either way long term.

That is long term these days when it comes to coaches and turning around programs.

How many years would you prefer?

 

[Orange_Crush]

This made sense. But I'll assume you're talking about Escape Goat, since he brought it up.



Here is what my stance is based on.

Record pre-arrival
Jones: 12-1, 7-0 Big East
Strong: 4-8, 1-6 Big East

Record in last season
Jones: 10-3, Belk Bowl
Strong: 11-2, Sugar Bowl

Record vs. Big East
Jones: 12-9 (when inheriting a team that had gone 17-4 the three seasons prior)
Strong: 13-8 (inheriting 5-16)

Record vs. teams with 8+ wins
Jones: 2-13
Strong: 8-4

You're certainly free to think what you want to think, but to me it's pretty obvious.

It's been well documented that Brian Kelly left UC with a LOT of roster problems, especially on defense. I don't really feel like going back and finding the posts, but I posted the references and documentation in two separate threads within the last month. Feel free to go dig them out.

In any event, the team that CBJ inherited was NOT an 11-1 roster, and he had a bit of a rebuild on his hands.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Yaayyy!....somebody won...right?
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It's kept me smiling today.... so yes

 

[BaldBiker]

This made sense. But I'll assume you're talking about Escape Goat, since he brought it up.



Here is what my stance is based on.

Record pre-arrival
Jones: 12-1, 7-0 Big East
Strong: 4-8, 1-6 Big East

Record in last season
Jones: 10-3, Belk Bowl
Strong: 11-2, Sugar Bowl

Record vs. Big East
Jones: 12-9 (when inheriting a team that had gone 17-4 the three seasons prior)
Strong: 13-8 (inheriting 5-16)

Record vs. teams with 8+ wins
Jones: 2-13
Strong: 8-4

You're certainly free to think what you want to think, but to me it's pretty obvious.

Can you break down who the teams were? Since, apparently this dead horse is going to continue to be beaten, let's at least see who they were. A win against...say... an 8+ win Murry St. wouldn't carry as weight as a win against a bigger name school.

If we are going to continue with this stupid argument, at least fill the page with a bunch of statistics no one cares about.

 

[Spartacavolus]

This made sense. But I'll assume you're talking about Escape Goat, since he brought it up.



Here is what my stance is based on.

Record pre-arrival
Jones: 12-1, 7-0 Big East
Strong: 4-8, 1-6 Big East

Record in last season
Jones: 10-3, Belk Bowl
Strong: 11-2, Sugar Bowl

Record vs. Big East
Jones: 12-9 (when inheriting a team that had gone 17-4 the three seasons prior)
Strong: 13-8 (inheriting 5-16)

Record vs. teams with 8+ wins
Jones: 2-13
Strong: 8-4

You're certainly free to think what you want to think, but to me it's pretty obvious.

Thank you for allowing me to think that I will see how we do on the field and judge our coach. You feel free to judge what Strong may have done here. That makes a lot of sense.

And as far as inheriting a winning team, you act like that means a coach should win right away. That's ridiculous. What if they were all srs? Injuries.. Change in coaching staff..change in techniques..attrition with a change..following a top 5 coach..establishing trust..on the field leaders..
Too many factors to blanket a coach and say he inherited a great team so should keep up the winning pace. That's not how it works.

 

[Spartacavolus]

It's been well documented that Brian Kelly left UC with a LOT of roster problems, especially on defense. I don't really feel like going back and finding the posts, but I posted the references and documentation in two separate threads within the last month. Feel free to go dig them out.

In any event, the team that CBJ inherited was NOT an 11-1 roster, and he had a bit of a rebuild on his hands.

That doesn't matter. He inherited a program with a great record before he got there. No reason a new, younger, and less experienced coach shouldn't keep up the pace with a top 5 ncaa coach in the middle of hell, which is where Cincy is, and with major roster changes.

 

[hohenfelsvol]

Yaayyy!....somebody won...right?
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Not enough information at this time to definitely say. Come back in five years.

 

[hohenfelsvol]

Can you break down who the teams were? Since, apparently this dead horse is going to continue to be beaten,

Dead horses is what keeps this place going.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Thank you for allowing me to think that I will see how we do on the field and judge our coach. You feel free to judge what Strong may have done here. That makes a lot of sense.

And as far as inheriting a winning team, you act like that means a coach should win right away. That's ridiculous. What if they were all srs? Injuries.. Change in coaching staff..change in techniques..attrition with a change..following a top 5 coach..establishing trust..on the field leaders..
Too many factors to blanket a coach and say he inherited a great team so should keep up the winning pace. That's not how it works.

Well put, Spart... We can also add this to (another) conversation:

Throughout my postmortum on the Bowl-less campaign of 2010 a couple of themes have begun to make their presence know. First among them is the stunning lack of general depth on the roster, while this deficit is visible at all positions, it is along the lines, both offensive and defensive where this issue came to bear most emphatically.

The biggest issue with the defensive line last year, in my opinion at least, was a catastrophic lack of depth, and that was something that became apparent pretty early in the season.

The bottom line though is that Kelly reached on a lot of defensive line prospects, he certainly didn't recruit that position group at a BCS level. He reached on a lot of kids, most of whom are likely to be back ups at best going forward.

Grading The Defensive Line - Down The Drive

 

[chavisut]

That is long term these days when it comes to coaches and turning around programs.

How many years would you prefer?

Who had their team more turned around after three years? Who won a BCS game?

So, is Butch better because he went 2-1 against Strong, even though Strong reached higher success.

 

[Orange_Crush]

That doesn't matter. He inherited a program with a great record before he got there. No reason a new, younger, and less experienced coach shouldn't keep up the pace with a top 5 ncaa coach in the middle of hell, which is where Cincy is, and with major roster changes.

Response delayed due to mandated sarcasm meter calibration. Please hold...

 

[chavisut]

Not enough information at this time to definitely say. Come back in five years.

Charlie Strong won a BCS game in three years. Did Butch?

Oh wait, head to head is the true measure. Damn the time frame and circumstances.

Tommy Tuberville is better than Nick Saban ya'll.

 

[chavisut]

That is long term these days when it comes to coaches and turning around programs.

How many years would you prefer?

UL before Strong: 4-8
Strong's third year: 11-2, BCS win.

How is that for a turn around?

 

[hohenfelsvol]

Who had their team more turned around after three years? Who won a BCS game?

So, is Butch better because he went 2-1 against Strong, even though Strong reached higher success.

You're thinking too deep. Looking at head to head stats over three years is an indication and a trend. I agree there are many other variables but that one variable cannot be discounted. I'm only speaking to the head to head record. In the end, fifty years from now, that is all someone will see. Not if it was snowing, or a key player was hurt, or Butch felt off that day because he couldn't make it to the barber.