Ok let's say we concede the fact that

[sjt18]

Me either sjt18.I came into this season expecting 6-6.With wins coming against Auburn&Ky.With our best possible upset being Sc.I expected losses to Or, Fl, Ga, Al,Mo&Vandy.Of course nobody saw Auburn improving like they did. So looks like we'll end up 5-7.Hopefully I'll be wrong about Vandy & end up at 6-6.No doubt Jones walked into a tough job.Little talent and 0 depth. I did however expect to see steady improvement.The losses I expected to be more competitive. Didn't expect to get curb stomped! Jones I think is gonna be a good one. He may have to make some staff changes tho.

Seven wins would have gone a long way toward proving that this is the right staff. Six wins is a push... proves little either way. Five wins will indicate this staff in part or whole is not the right one if UT wants to win championships.

I do not buy the "talent and depth" excuse because it doesn't float when you start comparing "apples to apples" with other coaches who have taken over struggling programs. Talent wise, Mizzou was winnable. UGA and UF were obviously winnable. The "right" coaching staff will win games like that. It isn't "over" for Jones and his guys... but those are the wins where coaching has to make the difference.

Jones rightly emphasizes championship level play by the players... I would like to also see championship level coaching. This season has not proven this staff is up to it.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Wait. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either ULM was a game that Bama should have won to make them a 7 or 8 win team... OR it is the excuse for why it is "unreasonable" to expect UT's staff to improve the program in their first season. You can't have it both ways.

That.... is a coaching choice. You follow recruiting and are smarter than that. The guys he is now recruiting for the OL are VERY similar players and maybe a tad slower. IMHO, the problem with this OL is there's not a "killer" amongst them. They're too nice. Mizzou's OL really isn't that talented... but they are nasty mean on the field.

But if these OL's really aren't suited to play in this offense (I don't believe that but you're buying it) then why play them? I have advocated for a couple of weeks now that either Bullard or Stone needs to sit and let Crowder take over at center. He will return... and he has a nasty streak in him.



Saban inherited a better situation at LSU but it was more competition than roster... though the roster wasn't bad by comparison. The West was very weak. Bama was the default winner (6 times, SEC champ 2). The West only won two SEC Championships out of 9 before Saban arrived at LSU. Ole Miss and Arkansas were terrible. MSU was spotty. Auburn was "OK". LSU had been nobody before Saban got there.

sjt, what argument are you making about Saban in comparison to whether he is an example of whether we can judge this staff immediately, based on current performance? This is what you had to say about Saban as an example, a couple of years ago:

I said you cannot evaluate the coaches by this particular team. Improving the record will ultimately be THE ONLY important factor... but that time is not now. Overall, yes. But not in '07, '95, '96, '97, '98... You do realize that before his one good season at Michigan State Saban was about to be fired, right? He "escaped" MSU to a desperate LSU program coming off a series of bad coaches... Archer, Hallman, and Dinardo had pretty much flopped.

Per your apparent argument that we can't blame player performance on a change of scheme, I find this quote interesting, also from a couple of years ago.

There is a big difference between coaching and teaching. You coach juniors and seniors you teach freshmen and sophomores. If coaches are spending most of their time teaching they don't have much time to coach and you don't win many games when you spend most of your time teaching. Neither our offense or defense run simple systems. Seriously marinate on that for a moment.

http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/144748-good-god-we-suck-thanks-coaches-7.html

Whether the current players fit the scheme, do you think it's possible that our current players have spent a great deal of time being "taught" the new systems, as opposed to being "coached" in the new systems?

If our current players spent a great deal of time being "taught" under the old staff, with less "coaching", do you think that could have an impact on current performance, under a new system, where they are still being "taught" the new system.

Could that be an inhibiting factor, independent of coaching acumen?

:hi:

 

[volfan411]

sjt, what argument are you making about Saban in comparison to whether he is an example of whether we can judge this staff immediately, based on current performance? This is what you had to say about Saban as an example, a couple of years ago:



Per your apparent argument that we can't blame player performance on a change of scheme, I find this quote interesting, also from a couple of years ago.



http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/144748-good-god-we-suck-thanks-coaches-7.html

Whether the current players fit the scheme, do you think it's possible that our current players have spent a great deal of time being "taught" the new systems, as opposed to being "coached" in the new systems?

If our current players spent a great deal of time being "taught" under the old staff, with less "coaching", do you think that could have an impact on current performance, under a new system, where they are still being "taught" the new system.

Could that be an inhibiting factor, independent of coaching acumen?

:hi:

I agree with the above about the teaching as Jones has said from day one these players have to be taught to win and the brick by brick phrase means just that.

 

[sjt18]

SJT, you're a decent guy, and I've always enjoyed our conversations. What changed? Is it a "fool me once" mentality or what?

EXACTLY. I have on several occasions admitted I was wrong. Few here do that. Many have just changed their name rather than swallowing their pride.

I was wrong. I advocated too much patience for Dooley and went too far trying to avoid negatives. I thought it was important to buoy the perception of program that way. In honesty, recruits heard the same negatives and much worse from other coaches with or without our help. We aren't saying anything here that is a surprise to any recruit or anyone else.

I think Jones is better than Dooley. But what has he really done at UT? So far, he has a good recruiting class committed.... and has used a lot of cool cliches. He's "exciting" to fans and more importantly to recruits. He is doing a great job of selling a vision.

The EFFECTS of the coaching to this point look no better than what we saw from Dooley especially in the first two years up to about the UK game.

My trust is going to be earned, not donated. When he was announced, many people here (some who now get angry when anyone criticizes the staff) said, "Who?" Of course as fans, we go from "Who?" to "Hmm" to "He's the greatest ever" pretty quick.

The same concerns many had about both Jones and the staff... I still have. I am waiting for them to actually DO something before declaring that those concerns have been answered.

You don't seem content to cut this staff the same slack because you made some great points back in the day.

I probably lean a little hard away from cutting them slack because so many here give them carte blanche. I know there are good reasons for this not to be a 9 win team. It would have taken a very good coaching job to get to 7. Six is an "average" job... UT needs much better than an "average" staff. There is very little reason this should be worse than a six win team... that would be well under potential.

I made some points I still believe in... but I went too far and I went too quick. These guys need to earn a little bit of that.

 

[volroadwarrior]

Another FIRE BUTCH OP. Let's get some more small minds together so we can get this ball rolling.

 

[Orange_Crush]

EXACTLY. I have on several occasions admitted I was wrong. Few here do that. Many have just changed their name rather than swallowing their pride.

I was wrong. I advocated too much patience for Dooley and went too far trying to avoid negatives. I thought it was important to buoy the perception of program that way. In honesty, recruits heard the same negatives and much worse from other coaches with or without our help. We aren't saying anything here that is a surprise to any recruit or anyone else.

I think Jones is better than Dooley. But what has he really done at UT? So far, he has a good recruiting class committed.... and has used a lot of cool cliches. He's "exciting" to fans and more importantly to recruits. He is doing a great job of selling a vision.

The EFFECTS of the coaching to this point look no better than what we saw from Dooley especially in the first two years up to about the UK game.

My trust is going to be earned, not donated. When he was announced, many people here (some who now get angry when anyone criticizes the staff) said, "Who?" Of course as fans, we go from "Who?" to "Hmm" to "He's the greatest ever" pretty quick.

The same concerns many had about both Jones and the staff... I still have. I am waiting for them to actually DO something before declaring that those concerns have been answered.

I probably lean a little hard away from cutting them slack because so many here give them carte blanche. I know there are good reasons for this not to be a 9 win team. It would have taken a very good coaching job to get to 7. Six is an "average" job... UT needs much better than an "average" staff. There is very little reason this should be worse than a six win team... that would be well under potential.

I made some points I still believe in... but I went too far and I went too quick. These guys need to earn a little bit of that.

You actually made a lot of great points as to why one can't make:

• Premature judgments.
• Emotional judgments.

They were great points, sjt. And they are still very valid.

One is still well advised to consider what this staff is working against, and withhold judgment. Notice that isn't to say, "crown them..." That is to say, "Wait and see..."

One would also be well advised to not make emotional judgments. That would include, "this staff is great because we need them to be great", as well as "this staff sucks because we need them to be great", as well as "my last girlfriend slept around on me, so I'm done with women..."

When your previous arguments were so well reasoned, (I'll go ahead and say it while wishing my intent and inflection came across in the text), I believe you have erred on the emotional response of "fool me once". I believe you are falling into the same emotional, irrational trap that you argued against two years ago.

Again... While the outcome was anything but what we would have liked, your arguments were the right ones.

Just because Dooley failed when we waited, and considered what he was up against, doesn't mean it's wrong to wait and consider what a staff is up against now.


:hi:

 

[sjt18]

Per your last post, you took my point about coaching out of context. They were starting a bunch of Freshmen across the OL at that point. There was MORE youth playing in Dooley's first two years than now... many of them the SAME players.

It isn't a perfect fit when guys have been "taught" in one system then need to be "coached" in another. But that still does not explain what we're seeing on the OL or on the D right now. The OL not finishing their blocks cannot be excused that way. They do not seem to be breaking down on technique... but effort and discipline. That is something a good coach makes an impact on.

Most of the D has a lot of experience playing in the 4-3. Yes there are differences but those differences should not be the cause of guys being consistently out of position. Brewer and Sapp are plenty fast enough to play OLB in the 4-3. The playcalling, game planning, and schemes have not been impressive to say the least.

 

[Orange_Crush]

EXACTLY. I have on several occasions admitted I was wrong. Few here do that. Many have just changed their name rather than swallowing their pride.

I was wrong. I advocated too much patience for Dooley and went too far trying to avoid negatives. I thought it was important to buoy the perception of program that way. In honesty, recruits heard the same negatives and much worse from other coaches with or without our help. We aren't saying anything here that is a surprise to any recruit or anyone else.

I think Jones is better than Dooley. But what has he really done at UT? So far, he has a good recruiting class committed.... and has used a lot of cool cliches. He's "exciting" to fans and more importantly to recruits. He is doing a great job of selling a vision.

The EFFECTS of the coaching to this point look no better than what we saw from Dooley especially in the first two years up to about the UK game.

My trust is going to be earned, not donated. When he was announced, many people here (some who now get angry when anyone criticizes the staff) said, "Who?" Of course as fans, we go from "Who?" to "Hmm" to "He's the greatest ever" pretty quick.

The same concerns many had about both Jones and the staff... I still have. I am waiting for them to actually DO something before declaring that those concerns have been answered.

I probably lean a little hard away from cutting them slack because so many here give them carte blanche. I know there are good reasons for this not to be a 9 win team. It would have taken a very good coaching job to get to 7. Six is an "average" job... UT needs much better than an "average" staff. There is very little reason this should be worse than a six win team... that would be well under potential.

I made some points I still believe in... but I went too far and I went too quick. These guys need to earn a little bit of that.

And I forgot to mention: You apparently haven't just changed your approach on "when" to make a judgement... Go back and read your remarks I posted in this thread and the other. You have changed your standards on "how" to judge improvement. This is more radical to me than anything.

You have gone from the belief that you can't initially judge improvement based on record, the speed at which players pick up the scheme or begin playing to potential, etc... to the belief that a 5 win season, against top 10 opponents, players out of position, etc... is indicative of bad coaching from the start.

It really is striking, sjt.

I don't say this sarcastically, but it appears that you really were wounded by how the CDD tenure ended up.

Again... Just because a bad coach struggles under those circumstances doesn't logically prove that a good one won't. Just go back to the Saban argument that you judiciously used two years ago, but which you are shooting down now.

Saban struggled under poor circumstances. We did not see immediate improvement at either MSU or LSU.

But he is undoubtedly a great, championship coach that didn't show radical improvement to begin either of those tenures. Decry it as an example all you want, but it is an example.

:hi:

 

[volfan411]

EXACTLY. I have on several occasions admitted I was wrong. Few here do that. Many have just changed their name rather than swallowing their pride.

I was wrong. I advocated too much patience for Dooley and went too far trying to avoid negatives. I thought it was important to buoy the perception of program that way. In honesty, recruits heard the same negatives and much worse from other coaches with or without our help. We aren't saying anything here that is a surprise to any recruit or anyone else.

I think Jones is better than Dooley. But what has he really done at UT? So far, he has a good recruiting class committed.... and has used a lot of cool cliches. He's "exciting" to fans and more importantly to recruits. He is doing a great job of selling a vision.

The EFFECTS of the coaching to this point look no better than what we saw from Dooley especially in the first two years up to about the UK game.

My trust is going to be earned, not donated. When he was announced, many people here (some who now get angry when anyone criticizes the staff) said, "Who?" Of course as fans, we go from "Who?" to "Hmm" to "He's the greatest ever" pretty quick.

The same concerns many had about both Jones and the staff... I still have. I am waiting for them to actually DO something before declaring that those concerns have been answered.

I probably lean a little hard away from cutting them slack because so many here give them carte blanche. I know there are good reasons for this not to be a 9 win team. It would have taken a very good coaching job to get to 7. Six is an "average" job... UT needs much better than an "average" staff. There is very little reason this should be worse than a six win team... that would be well under potential.

I made some points I still believe in... but I went too far and I went too quick. These guys need to earn a little bit of that.

sjt18 I have pretty much the same opinion as you as UT cannot have a average coach because we only have a average recruiting base at best. I have sadi from day one that UT has to have a coach who can do more with less and not a coach who does less with more.

I have said from day one that I will reserve placing judgement on this staff until the end of next year but you alone have made me raise red flags on the defensive side of the ball this season. I still feel better about this staff than I did in year one of Dooley but only time will tell if this staff can get it done. I sure hope they can as I believe that stability and recruiting are the 2 most important part of turning the program around.

 

[HuntsVol_AL]

So much negativity. There are some very unhappy, very sad people here.

I guess that I should be glad that this forum can absorb some of the negativity; hopefully it spares the people around you. I'm sure, though, that a dark cloud follows some of you.

 

[sjt18]

Just because Dooley failed when we waited, and considered what he was up against, doesn't mean it's wrong to wait and consider what a staff is up against now.


:hi:

I am not drawing final conclusions. I am trying to distinguish between those things that are clearly negative indicators for the coaches and things that will simply take time to turn around.

I am not a very emotional person.... but I do learn. My "reasoning" has been adjusted because I missed ALOT of indicators with Dooley. Again, there are some positives but there are some negatives too.

The "indicators" which are deeper than just mistakes or errors on D are not good right now. Many point to coaching... and not the type of coaching it takes years to instill.

Even though it has not been "pretty" for much of the year, I actually like many of the things they try to do on O. Those things are often dependent on timing so I really do think the O will progressively improve going forward though I am concerned about the lack of returning experience next year on the OL.

 

[sjt18]

And I forgot to mention: You apparently haven't just changed your approach on "when" to make a judgement... Go back and read your remarks I posted in this thread and the other. You have changed your standards on "how" to judge improvement. This is more radical to me than anything.

How do you think I did that? I am a little confused. The only real measure of progress are wins and basic stats like total O, total D, scoring O/D...

You have gone from the belief that you can't initially judge improvement based on record, the speed at which players pick up the scheme or begin playing to potential, etc... to the belief that a 5 win season, against top 10 opponents, players out of position, etc... is indicative of bad coaching from the start.

Again, I was wrong. I can't change that now. I will eat as much humble pie as you want to dish me... but the answer really cannot change. I was wrong to argue for that much patience to the neglect of bad warning signs.

I actually boiled it down to wins but did in fact put a lot of thought into what kind of coaching it would take to reach those win totals.

I don't say this sarcastically, but it appears that you really were wounded by how the CDD tenure ended up.

No. Not the way it ended. It ended as it should have when he failed. BTW, I did say that he should have to beat someone that mattered in that last year which would have given them an 8-10 win season or there abouts had they beaten all the teams they should have beaten.

Saban struggled under poor circumstances. We did not see immediate improvement at either MSU or LSU.

He didn't really improve MSU. History was literally changed when LSU took a big chance on a guy with a pretty lackluster career to that point.

You never know when a guy is going to turn the corner like that. I would LOVE for the next guy to do it to be Jancek... but he DOES need to turn a corner. Right now, he just isn't very good.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Per your last post, you took my point about coaching out of context. They were starting a bunch of Freshmen across the OL at that point. There was MORE youth playing in Dooley's first two years than now... many of them the SAME players.

It isn't a perfect fit when guys have been "taught" in one system then need to be "coached" in another. But that still does not explain what we're seeing on the OL or on the D right now. The OL not finishing their blocks cannot be excused that way. They do not seem to be breaking down on technique... but effort and discipline. That is something a good coach makes an impact on.

So, a crew that has had the same problems under two staffs, one staff that you said two years ago (OL coaches) were proven great coaches... Indicates that this staff can't coach? It may be, I guess. But I think it is a logical leap for you say is definitely on the coaches.

I mean... If I have an employee that was giving piss-poor performance under a previous manager, and transfer to a new manager, who gets piss poor performance, my first thought wouldn't be "Hm... I guess the current manager is horrible."

I would put the employee on notice.

The current UT OL staff has historically produced road grater OLs that perform well against their talent level (and many times better talented opposition). The OL product I see is not indicative of previous CBJ teams.

Then, you have to wonder if the current manager is having to break bad habits instilled by previous poor management, right?

CDD and that staff are known for producing teams that quit. Is it possible that a really good staff is having to break losing habits? Especially when CBJ specifically said he's having to break bad habits and teach this team how to win?

That's not to say that CBJ is the answer. But it is several possible reasons that it could be something besides coaching, which you seem to be laying it on.

Most of the D has a lot of experience playing in the 4-3. Yes there are differences but those differences should not be the cause of guys being consistently out of position. Brewer and Sapp are plenty fast enough to play OLB in the 4-3. The playcalling, game planning, and schemes have not been impressive to say the least.

A wise man said back in 2011...

That said, there is a talent disparity still because of the situation Dooley inherited. That limits gameplanning...

He was right then, and he'd be right today about this UT team.

 

[Orange_Crush]

How do you think I did that? I am a little confused. The only real measure of progress are wins and basic stats like total O, total D, scoring O/D...

Again, I was wrong. I can't change that now. I will eat as much humble pie as you want to dish me... but the answer really cannot change. I was wrong to argue for that much patience to the neglect of bad warning signs.

I actually boiled it down to wins but did in fact put a lot of thought into what kind of coaching it would take to reach those win totals.

No. Not the way it ended. It ended as it should have when he failed. BTW, I did say that he should have to beat someone that mattered in that last year which would have given them an 8-10 win season or there abouts had they beaten all the teams they should have beaten.

He didn't really improve MSU. History was literally changed when LSU took a big chance on a guy with a pretty lackluster career to that point.

You never know when a guy is going to turn the corner like that. I would LOVE for the next guy to do it to be Jancek... but he DOES need to turn a corner. Right now, he just isn't very good.

That was never my intent, and I was actually afraid it would come across that way. I'll put it to bed.

:hi:

 

[sjt18]

So, a crew that has had the same problems under two staffs, one staff that you said two years ago (OL coaches) were proven great coaches... Indicates that this staff can't coach? It may be, I guess. But I think it is a logical leap for you say is definitely on the coaches.

I am going to answer this one definitively then have to get back to work.

It is no logical leap at all. I took over and underperforming group of people in my current job. We set new standards across the board for performance. We "coached" those who continued to perform under the bar... and when the time came... we replaced them.

I am disappointed that these OL's with all that natural talent have not progressed under a staff that we all expected and expect to be better than the last one. I am even MORE disappointed that low performers have continued to start ahead of hungry players. This is ALL coaching.

 

[volfan411]

So, a crew that has had the same problems under two staffs, one staff that you said two years ago (OL coaches) were proven great coaches... Indicates that this staff can't coach? It may be, I guess. But I think it is a logical leap for you say is definitely on the coaches.

I mean... If I have an employee that was giving piss-poor performance under a previous manager, and transfer to a new manager, who gets piss poor performance, my first thought wouldn't be "Hm... I guess the current manager is horrible."

I would put the employee on notice.

The current UT OL staff has historically produced road grater OLs that perform well against their talent level (and many times better talented opposition). The OL product I see is not indicative of previous CBJ teams.

Then, you have to wonder if the current manager is having to break bad habits instilled by previous poor management, right?

CDD and that staff are known for producing teams that quit. Is it possible that a really good staff is having to break losing habits? Especially when CBJ specifically said he's having to break bad habits and teach this team how to win?

That's not to say that CBJ is the answer. But it is several possible reasons that it could be something besides coaching, which you seem to be laying it on.




A wise man said back in 2011...



He was right then, and he'd be right today about this UT team.

Orange_crush thank you for being the light at the end of the tunnel on here the last few weeks. I was and still am a supporter of Coach Jones and his staff but reading all that I have on here the last few weeks I had doubts start to creep into the back of my head. I believe BJ when he says losing is a culture for it only took a couple of loses for the fanbase to fall back into the past. I believe and hope that BJ is the man that can change the culture and bring the BIG ORANGE back to prominence.

 

[87Vol]

So much negativity. There are some very unhappy, very sad people here.

I guess that I should be glad that this forum can absorb some of the negativity; hopefully it spares the people around you. I'm sure, though, that a dark cloud follows some of you.

Losing and getting utterly embarrassed week after week, month after month, year after year, will do that to a fan base.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Losing and getting utterly embarrassed week after week, month after month, year after year, will do that to a fan base.

And our current staff is paying the piper for it.

 

[87Vol]

And our current staff is paying the piper for it.

This year, they are helping contribute to it. There's no excuse for not showing up at all against Alabama, Mizzou, and Auburn. At the very least we should have been a little more competitive. We also should have shown at least a little improvement on defense this year, but we haven't. No excuses.

 

[Orange_Crush]

This year, they are helping contribute to it. There's no excuse for not showing up at all against Alabama, Mizzou, and Auburn. At the very least we should have been a little more competitive. We also should have shown at least a little improvement on defense this year, but we haven't. No excuses.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree. Time will tell the tale.

Think about what you just said:

Losing and getting utterly embarrassed week after week, month after month, year after year, will do that to a fan base.

There are obviously problems bigger than this staff.

 

[volfan411]

This year, they are helping contribute to it. There's no excuse for not showing up at all against Alabama, Mizzou, and Auburn. At the very least we should have been a little more competitive. We also should have shown at least a little improvement on defense this year, but we haven't. No excuses.

Ther is excuses but what is the use in rehashing them. While we got embarrased the last few weeks our W-L is right where we were predicted to be at this point in the season.

 

[utvolCO]

Ther is excuses but what is the use in rehashing them. While we got embarrased the last few weeks our W-L is right where we were predicted to be at this point in the season.

I think thats the problem. Some fans are upset because we had a chance to really overachieve this year in a big way and now 6 - 6 feels more like second place.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I think thats the problem. Some fans are upset because we had a chance to really overachieve this year in a big way and now 6 - 6 feels more like second place.

I guess that's partially my point. It just seems a bit unfair to hold people accountable to invented expectations that really don't match the state of our program vs the quality of the teams we've lost to/gotten embarrassed by.

 

[utvolCO]

I guess that's partially my point. It just seems a bit unfair to hold people accountable to invented expectations that really don't match the state of our program vs the quality of the teams we've lost to/gotten embarrassed by.

True. I am taking the wait and see approach.

 

[Ace]

GA and SC games were anomalies. GA was beat up -we rode a wave of emotion and nearly beat them. An off week allowed us to prepare for SC and again the we played above our talent level and won. During the last three weeks reality has set in. We have a long way to go before we will be truly competitive in the SEC on a talent level.

All that being said, our recruiting class is a great step in the right direction. On the next two Saturdays CBJ has the opportunity to prove he is the right man for the job. We will have a talent edge in both games plus a week off to prepare. I believe the Vols are about to take the next step to being a championship program. GBO