Other great coaches that started similar to CBJ

[johndoevol]

But Franklin undid YEARS of bad coaching in the same period... Saban did too unless you don't think losing close games is more indicative of good coaching than getting blown out and beaten by an inferior team.

No... I don't and no... I am not. Most of what I have cited are facts or opinions based on facts. I understand why they are offensive to you. I really do. You don't want to believe that the indications are there that this is NOT a good coaching staff. You want to believe that eveything is fine and that these guys are going to turn it around. That's just not what their performance indicates.

As is your determined denial of the bad warning signs. I haven't said these guys will ultimately fail. But what they have done coaching wise so far is NOT a good indicator of success.

You aren't helping your case. You are making the case that great coaching takes mediocre talent and wins games against better talent. I agree. That is the opposite of what this staff did this year.

So what you are saying is that it doesn't take a complicated system that takes years to install, right? It just takes an effective system and coaching, right?

Yet I answer every objection you have with facts and fact based opinions while you have to turn to insults, hyperbole, and evasion....

This has nothing to do with Dooley. If you think Dooley caused the Vandy loss then all I can say is that I'm sorry you are that detached from reality.

No. But if the next girl came in and showed the same signs or worse within the first few weeks together... I wouldn't close my eyes to it.

Dooley failed. He failed badly. The first two years were pretty much what many expected but the last was a joke... but Dooley was MORE successful in his first year with a VERY similar situation. At least his teams competed for a half before getting blown out... he didn't lose to Vandy.

You guys want to compare Jones first year to Saban's when there is no comparison... then avoid comparing to Dooley's first year when it is a very relevant comparison.

you would have said the opposite last year, I still like you sjt18, you will come around! :salute:

 

[tnvols72]

I thought I seen this same thread after Dooleys year zero. I bet the same people trying to make other posters think the way they want are the same ones that was on here trying to convince everybody Dooley was the man for the job. I am not saying BJ isn't the man for the job, I want to think he is but his little friends he brought with him are not going to get it done. He had a chance to hire better assistants and should of.

 

[johndoevol]

I thought I seen this same thread after Dooleys year zero. I bet the same people trying to make other posters think the way they want are the same ones that was on here trying to convince everybody Dooley was the man for the job. I am not saying BJ isn't the man for the job, I want to think he is but his little friends he brought with him are not going to get it done. He had a chance to hire better assistants and should of.

you do not know that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[sjt18]

Come on man! it is not blind faith! it is an strategic need!!!!!! don't you understand that we can not afford another coaching change,

Yes. Unfortunately I do. I see a definite Catch-22 there.

dont't you understand that we have to help this staff overachieve,

I've tried. They aren't reading all my posts. I told them to light a fire under the OL and DL by replacing starters weeks ago.

why is it so difficult to grasp the idea that we are at the end of our rope,

Oh, I do... I just don't see the coaching this season as anything except grease on that rope.

we have no more choices,

There are always choices. Vandy hired Franklin when he was the OC for a not very good Maryland team. Nothing about his resume screamed "great Head Coach"... I don't think he initially cost them much.

money has dried up, we better make it work with this staff or we will become an also ran forever!,

Nah, in two more years he either succeeds or someone pays his buy out and someone new will come in. Hopefully at a minimum he can recruit a couple of great classes to set the next guy up for success if he cannot turn it around. The best solution(s) are either this staff gets it together or Jones replaces some guys next fall and builds a great staff (assistants have only two year contracts).

this is not a joke!, we have to make it work with this coach or it will be the end!!!!!

LOL... OK Chik'n Lil. Doomsday approacheth if you say so.... but it really doesn't.

wake the hell up! there is not a rainbow at the end of the way!!!, we have to make it work with this coach or else we are doomed.:ermm:

I am awake. I'm seeing what they're doing. Doom by poor coaching is no more appealing to me than doom by coaching... from a different coach.

 

[sjt18]

I thought I seen this same thread after Dooleys year zero. I bet the same people trying to make other posters think the way they want are the same ones that was on here trying to convince everybody Dooley was the man for the job. I am not saying BJ isn't the man for the job, I want to think he is but his little friends he brought with him are not going to get it done. He had a chance to hire better assistants and should of.

I advocated far more "rope" and patience for Dooley than I should have. Like many now, I ignored some warning signs wanting so badly to believe everything would work out if we just gave him support. In the end... those warning signs proved prophetic. And frankly, his first staff did a better job 3 years ago than this staff did this year.

 

[Wylo]

Ok. Butch Jones (prior to UT) is 50-27 (65% win percentage)

Nick Saban (prior to Alabama) is 91-42-1 (68% win percentage)

Pretty similar ratios. Make your own judgment..

How many national titles did Butch win? oh yeah, zero. Saban had 1 and a good foundation of success at LSU. Butch was busy tying for that awesome Big East title with two and three losses.

Very good comparison.

 

[johndoevol]

Yes. Unfortunately I do. I see a definite Catch-22 there. I've tried. They aren't reading all my posts. I told them to light a fire under the OL and DL by replacing starters weeks ago.

Oh, I do... I just don't see the coaching this season as anything except grease on that rope. There are always choices. Vandy hired Franklin when he was the OC for a not very good Maryland team. Nothing about his resume screamed "great Head Coach"... I don't think he initially cost them much.

Nah, in two more years he either succeeds or someone pays his buy out and someone new will come in. Hopefully at a minimum he can recruit a couple of great classes to set the next guy up for success if he cannot turn it around. The best solution(s) are either this staff gets it together or Jones replaces some guys next fall and builds a great staff (assistants have only two year contracts).

LOL... OK Chik'n Lil. Doomsday approacheth if you say so.... but it really doesn't.

I am awake. I'm seeing what they're doing. Doom by poor coaching is no more appealing to me than doom by coaching... from a different coach.

I don't think you understand that the economy of the world is not what it was 2 years ago. the world is about to implode.



whatever, who cares!!!!!! dooooom is here to stay @!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ermm:

 

[sjt18]

you would have said the opposite last year, I still like you sjt18, you will come around! :salute:

Two or 3 years ago I would have. I tried to call the UK loss an explainable anomaly. It wasn't. Last year, I pretty much admitted it was past a done deal by the USCe game.

I hope nothing but the best but this staff did a very poor job this year. They were blown out 4 times (Dooley at least competed until half in most of his '10 blow outs) and lost to Vandy (Dooley was at the end of year two having lost Hunter and Bray's thumb before having a loss that bad). The team has not gotten better over the course of the year and look to have regressed. They underachieved the potential of the roster significantly.

I would love to see a way for better results next fall... but unless the coaching does a 180... I don't see it.

 

[sjt18]

How many national titles did Butch win? oh yeah, zero. Saban had 1 and a good foundation of success at LSU. Butch was busy tying for that awesome Big East title with two and three losses.

Very good comparison.

I'd be willing to bet a paycheck that the win % of Saban's opponents was far better than those of Jones too.

The comparisons to Saban in any form are worse than ridiculous at this point. Saban had nothing to prove when he arrived at Bama... Jones has ALOT to prove.

 

[johndoevol]

Two or 3 years ago I would have. I tried to call the UK loss an explainable anomaly. It wasn't. Last year, I pretty much admitted it was past a done deal by the USCe game.

I hope nothing but the best but this staff did a very poor job this year. They were blown out 4 times (Dooley at least competed until half in most of his '10 blow outs) and lost to Vandy (Dooley was at the end of year two having lost Hunter and Bray's thumb before having a loss that bad). The team has not gotten better over the course of the year and look to have regressed. They underachieved the potential of the roster significantly.

I would love to see a way for better results next fall... but unless the coaching does a 180... I don't see it.

ok then, we are doomed, we will never ever resurface. :cray:

 

[Cpatter4]

I never thought fellow Vol fans could get on my nerves so much...In every aspect of the game there is so much negativity. Coaching sucks, current players give up and lack heart, our recruiting class won't stick...

Blah blah blah.

Why don't you shut up, grow some patience, and give this process some time?

Here's some news for you... Nick Saban's first year at Michigan state he went 6-5-1. His first year at Alabama he went 2-6.

Our beloved Johnny Majors went 4-7 and 5-5-1 in his first two years at Tennessee.

Les Miles went 4-7 his first year at Oklahoma State.

Pete Carrol went 6-6 his first year at USC.

Jim Tressel went 7-5 his first year at Ohio State.

Bobby Bowden went 5-6 his first year at Florida State.

The list goes on. This is a rebuilding process... We all know what Butch inherited from Dooley and Kiffin. I know we are Tennessee and I hear it all the time..."This is the University of Tennessee! This shouldn't be tolerated!"

You're right! And it isn't being tolerated... hence the changes being made albeit if the changes take some time to take affect.

The recruits are coming. Come NSD I will bet anyone on VN that we finish with a full class of at least 30 and have a top 10 class...possibly better.

Take a deep breath and remember as the old saying goes "The night is darkest just before the dawn."

That record doesn't count. Their on the field record was 7-6 but had some wins vacated due to sanctions. Saban has never had a losing season in all of his college coaching career.

 

[tnvols72]

you do not know that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

and you do ? I bet you was a big Dooley man after year zero to ? I don't expect you to admit it.

 

[volfan411]

I advocated far more "rope" and patience for Dooley than I should have. Like many now, I ignored some warning signs wanting so badly to believe everything would work out if we just gave him support. In the end... those warning signs proved prophetic. And frankly, his first staff did a better job 3 years ago than this staff did this year.

I agree his first staff did better with talent recruited by others. In the end I did feel bad for Dooley as I did Fulmer as both hired coordinators that ultimately cost them their jobs but both were on shaky ground and had a hard time finding anyone with SEC experience willing to come in to a unstable situation.

I have seen a lot of talk on here about firing the coordinators after the season. My concern is that makes us that more unstable and proven coaches are not going to be willing to come in to a job that they are not stable in. What are your thoughts on that?

The thing I hate the worst about the Vandy loss is we have to enter another off season with more questions than answers again. I think it was you that said it best that once you enter the coaching carousal you just never know when you are going to get off.

 

[johndoevol]

and you do ? I bet you was a big Dooley man after year zero to ? I don't expect you to admit it.

you have to support the coaching staff in year one, come on man, are you so stupid? :ermm:

 

[sjt18]

I agree his first staff did better with talent recruited by others. In the end I did feel bad for Dooley as I did Fulmer as both hired coordinators that ultimately cost them their jobs but both were on shaky ground and had a hard time finding anyone with SEC experience willing to come in to a unstable situation.

I have seen a lot of talk on here about firing the coordinators after the season. My concern is that makes us that more unstable and proven coaches are not going to be willing to come in to a job that they are not stable in. What are your thoughts on that?

The thing I hate the worst about the Vandy loss is we have to enter another off season with more questions than answers again. I think it was you that said it best that once you enter the coaching carousal you just never know when you are going to get off.

I'm not seeing any changes after this season. Quality>stability... however I don't see it happening because Jones still believes in them.

 

[johndoevol]

I'm not seeing any changes after this season. Quality>stability... however I don't see it happening because Jones still believes in them.

if you have 20 millions of dollars to change the situation, go ahead, change it!, if not, shut the f up and support our staff because that is the better option! unless you are an opposing teamer! :unsure:

 

[DD4ME]

I'm not seeing any changes after this season. Quality>stability... however I don't see it happening because Jones still believes in them.

You mentioned a catch 22 for the school/fans in coaching change but Jones himself is in a catch 22. He's got a great recruiting class in the pipeline and needs to make this about current players. What none of us know either is how defeated those current players are mentally. This truly could be a byproduct of past issues over time. I'm as concerned as you about the signs but I'd say right now for all parties the best path is to stay the course get the roster turned over and start making something better. We'll see next year and for certain in 2015 if they can/will.

 

[volfan411]

I'm not seeing any changes after this season. Quality>stability... however I don't see it happening because Jones still believes in them.

I do not think so either. The thing that scares me is if we go 5-7 next season which is a possibility with all the youth that will be forced to play that Jones will have to make a change and be in the same situation that Dooley was in trying to hire a proven coordinator while he himself is not on firm ground.

 

[volfan411]

You mentioned a catch 22 for the school/fans in coaching change but Jones himself is in a catch 22. He's got a great recruiting class in the pipeline and needs to make this about current players. What none of us know either is how defeated those current players are mentally. This truly could be a byproduct of past issues over time. I'm as concerned as you about the signs but I'd say right now for all parties the best path is to stay the course get the roster turned over and start making something better. We'll see next year and for certain in 2015 if they can/will.

I agree as much as I hate losing I believe stability is more important at this time.

 

[johndoevol]

I'm not seeing any changes after this season. Quality>stability... however I don't see it happening because Jones still believes in them.

we are getting better quality with stability! you may have to eat your words!!!!!!!!!!!!:rock:

 

[BrianJ98]

How is that a fair comparison when Butch Jones followed uber-successful Brian Kelly at both of his previous two stops? Butch Jones inherited a Cincinnati team that went 12-0 the year prior, and he inherited a CMU team that went 9-4. Derek Dooley inherited a LaTech team that went 3-10 and fired their head-coach.

You cant just say "look at the results"...the reality is that this is the first time in Jones' career that he has walked into a train-wreck situation. His last two jobs came at schools where the previous coach was actually doing so well that he left to take a significant promotion. That is a whole lot different than coming into a job where you are getting hired because the previous coach failed miserably.

Fair point, but I still believe it's completely irrational and unfair to CBJ to jump the gun and declare him Dooley all over again. I don't care about who he inherited CMU and Cincy from, he still won football games. Something Dooley never had any experience of doing. Is the situation our program finds itself in an easy one to dig out of? No, but it's a good start getting a guy who kids love and want to go play for. Oh and a guy who sees this as a destination job. Stack a few great recruiting classes and he'll be fine. It starts with recruiting, something Dooley never did *cough Vonn Bell cough*

 

[tnvols72]

you have to support the coaching staff in year one, come on man, are you so stupid? :ermm:

No , I think you got that title all to yourself. I seen your posts.

 

[CountVolcula]

and to add to the mix, Pat Dye is the only SEC coach in history to have a losing first season followed by an SECC within his first 5 years.

Not great odds

 

[BrianJ98]

Also, guess who else lost to Vandy his first season. General Neyland. Now, he also went 8-1. But, it just shows that you shouldn't jump off the cliff because of one loss. For those of you who think we are more talented than Vandy, you're delusional. You saw our defense's speed against Auburn right? Oh, and against Troy last year? This team needs to get fast, that will take strong efforts in recruiting. I forget...has recruiting been good this year?

 

[johndoevol]

No , I think you got that title all to yourself. I seen your posts.

I may be a little emotional expressing my feelings, but you have to agree that we have no choice but to support this staff for at least 2 years. If you not agree, you are either a moron or an opposite fan.:salute: