Pac-10 Expansion (merged)

it's weird, the Big 12 teams are essentially using this as a negotiating tool with Nebraska and Missouri

wouldn't it be weird (funny weird) if those whole Pac10 - Big 12 confernce partnership meetings had been about discussing the Pac10 to extend this offer so that the Big 12 would have this huge negotiating chip to keep Mizzou and Nebraska there?
 
FWIW, this would be the probable set up...

Pacific/West/PAC-8 Division

Washington
Washington St.
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Stanford
Cal
USC

Inland/Southwest Conference

Colorado
Texas
Texas Tech
Texas A&M
Arizona
Arizona State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State

yes...that was stated multiple times that the new division set up would be UA and ASU in an eastern division with the Big 12 teams

If this happens, this is just going to be awesome, and then set off a chain reaction of the Big 10 and SEC also wanting in on the expansion party.

you do follow the news right? The Big 10 was the one that started all this; they've already been the ones planning on and going to make the expansion moves. Their expansion was going to happen regardless, not because (as a result) of the Pac 10 making moves
 
I'm don't see how these teams going over to the Pac-10, and most particularly Texas, is in any way good for the SEC. I think that Slive is sleeping on this one, if he's not got the foresight to have the SEC in the middle of this somewhere, somehow.

You can't let the likes of OK, TX and AM get dance partners before you start wondering who you're going to ask.

I wonder if the NEB / MIZZOU deadline is more to determine if those schools are going to also go with them to PAC-10, than to simply gauge if they're staying put in BIG 12.

Got a bad feeling that the SEC is about to be dancing with a couple of fatties if this goes down (read: GT, MIA, FSU, CLEM, WVU, et al).
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Just talking off the top of my head here but I think the SEC would be okay for one reason. If PAC-10, SEC and Big 10 all expanded the SEC would still be far better than the Big 10 (or 16). I can't see the ACC or Big East challenging for a NC in football after being robbed of their best teams. So the title game would be SEC vs. PAC-10 every year with the occasional year where the Luckeyes sneak in.

I base this on past history. When the ACC expanded, they were suppposed to challenge the SEC. That never happened because the schools entering the ACC while good were not NC contenders in football. The same with the Big-10. If MIzzu, Nebraska and three other teams join they haven't really accomplished much from a winning standpoint. How many major BCS bowl games have those schools been involved in in recent years?
 
How about Texas and their whole independence thing? Seems if history serves me correctly, they would never have had a shot at that in the first place without a lot of help from a bunch of Tennesseeans.. :) My opinion is that it would be crazy for them to go to the Pac 10. That's a lot of miles to just play sports, and if education is high on their priority list then that means a lot of time away from the classrooms and a lot of tired student athletes from travelling. JMHO
 
I'm don't see how these teams going over to the Pac-10, and most particularly Texas, is in any way good for the SEC. I think that Slive is sleeping on this one, if he's not got the foresight to have the SEC in the middle of this somewhere, somehow.

You can't let the likes of OK, TX and AM get dance partners before you start wondering who you're going to ask.

I wonder if the NEB / MIZZOU deadline is more to determine if those schools are going to also go with them to PAC-10, than to simply gauge if they're staying put in BIG 12.

Got a bad feeling that the SEC is about to be dancing with a couple of fatties if this goes down (read: GT, MIA, FSU, CLEM, WVU, et al).
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Slive has said that he's not going to be the first to do any expansion. He'd watch and see what others (at the time directed at the big 10) do before the SEC made its moves

The deadline with NEB and MIZZOU is more along the lines of a threat since there's no guarantee at this point that they're the teams the Big 10 will invite. So if they say sorry we're going to our best offer, the rest of the conference leaves, and it turns out the Big 10 doesn't invite one (or both) of those ....well they're royally screwed as theyre pretty much left conference-less


And finally, what in the world is the problem with a team like Miami - who has a large market, i.e. gives the conference more money each year - or an FSU with a wide team-base. Oh, so they're bad at football right now? Seriously, big whoop. Are people aware how cyclical this sport is? Teams go up and down all the time, at least every 5-6 years in fact (ex. how many times did you here about Texas in the 90s? from 85 until 2000 their seasons went:

8 wins, 5 wins, 7 wins, 4 wins, 5 wins, 10 wins, 5 wins, 6 wins, 5 wins, 8 wins, 10 wins, 8 wins, 4 wins, 9 wins, 9 wins, 9 wins......in fact they were 5-12 against an A&M who at that time wasnt a shell of a team but a pretty consistantly highly ranked one).

My end point to everyone being that none of these teams are going to indefinitely stay at the same level they are now. If you're one of the people arguing that Miami or FSU is a bad team b/c they're mediocre at football right now and in your minds they're going to stay that way, then by the same means Tennessee should be booted from the SEC b/c the last few years (and this one) have been pretty much along the same lines.


Every team in this sport (that isnt vanderbilt, baylor,...and kentucky) go through the ups and downs
 
Just talking off the top of my head here but I think the SEC would be okay for one reason. If PAC-10, SEC and Big 10 all expanded the SEC would still be far better than the Big 10 (or 16). I can't see the ACC or Big East challenging for a NC in football after being robbed of their best teams. So the title game would be SEC vs. PAC-10 every year with the occasional year where the Luckeyes sneak in.

I base this on past history. When the ACC expanded, they were suppposed to challenge the SEC. That never happened because the schools entering the ACC while good were not NC contenders in football. The same with the Big-10. If MIzzu, Nebraska and three other teams join they haven't really accomplished much from a winning standpoint. How many major BCS bowl games have those schools been involved in in recent years?

The reality is that with additions out far west the SEC would fall to at worst 3rd in revenue. Their major ESPN contract is going to keep the conference afloat and it won't bottom out.


The point of all this conference expansion - which so many people seem to miss - is to make money. IT's not about making their conferences look better on paper, it's not so they have tougher teams, or anything along that. The national champions are still going to go through the same thing as always, and the conferences will all switch off saying who's better based on how the season progresses.


But the reality is that this is happening b/c the money that the Big Ten is making off its networks (being able to give each school $22 million, which is the most in the country by quite a bit) is honestly the real victory right now b/c of the actual business nature of conferences and supporting this sport. That's the reality of this right now, the expansion's happening b/c the other conferences are trying to increase their markets, make them larger and more profitable, and catch up to that $242 million dollars a year the Big Ten makes in revenue.
 
How about Texas and their whole independence thing? Seems if history serves me correctly, they would never have had a shot at that in the first place without a lot of help from a bunch of Tennesseeans.. :) My opinion is that it would be crazy for them to go to the Pac 10. That's a lot of miles to just play sports, and if education is high on their priority list then that means a lot of time away from the classrooms and a lot of tired student athletes from travelling. JMHO

Texas has considered (or planned, depending on your POV) launching their own sports network for a few years now. Word is some network came and talked to them recently and said that if they gave they went with them, they could get Texas Notre-Dame-like television money

....so yeah, there's feeling that, too, Texas is still very much considering becoming an independent football program
 
For clarity's sake, I'll say the following:

I don't think that the SEC's existence or relevance would be in jeopardy were you to merge every remaining major conference together, add the AFC North & NFC South, throw in the Lakers and Yankees, have Billy Graham as the Conference Chaplain, name Warren Buffet as the Commissioner, and with Led Zeppelin opening every game with a free concert while topless women served free beer and gave out Snuggies to the first 5,000 fans. The SEC is simply too strong, from any conceivable standpoint (i.e. fanbase, money, prestige, history, winning, footprint, etc.), to fail to be one of the premier conferences in this country. Hooker said it best when he said that while the NFL was the "King of Sports", the SEC was the "Crowned Prince", and no compilation of calamitous events is going to change that, at least for the forseeable future.

The landing of Texas and Oklahoma (with or without the hanger-on schools coming with them) is critical because their addition / loss represents equally dramatic help and harm. Were the SEC to land them, where does the Pac-10 then go? Who do they then add that comes close to increasing their stature, as the landing of Texas / Oklahoma, et al, would provide? The shortest answer: Nowhere significant, as no one else would afford them this potential leap, were those two off of the table.

Should the SEC land them, it would likely make the already cavernous distance between themselves and other conferences nearly insurmountable - and across all critical criterion of revevue, TV footprint, competitive balance, etc. If you are like me, and think that winning either the Big 10 or Pac 10 championship is essentially meaningless now, wait until you do it without having to beat TX, FL, BAMA, TN, OK, GA, or any other SEC schools. Should the Pac-10 sign Texas and Oklahoma (again, with or without the hanger-on schools) all of these previously stated factors would work to greatly - GREATLY - close the gap between the Pac-10 and the SEC. How could it not? In fact, should the Pac-10 sign Texas and OK, I think that the Big 10 would then become a distant third - even if a miracle occurred and they somehow add Notre Dame. So, to me, that's really what's at stake here.....the SEC has a chance to place themselves in a nearly-unchallengeable position of current and future dominance, and the Pac-10 has this, a single chance to place themselves if not on-par with the SEC, then at least in the same conversation. In any regard, their size and footprint alone would ensure that they were never reduced to a point of irrelevance, or of being outside of the conversations.

The SEC would love to add them, but the Pac-10 MUST land them, IMO. More importantly, I believe that the Pac-10 is going to go after them, accordingly, with this mind set. Be prepared to see the Pac-10, "break the bank" so to speak, and make every effort to land both Texas and Oklahoma and the rest of the Big 12 defectors. I could see the Pac-10 being willing to add all four Texas teams, offering Texas and Oklahoma more revenue-shared money (as the Big 12 now does), having the Pac-10 championship game in Dallas, etc., etc. For well or ill, I think it is highly unlikely that the SEC will be similiarly able - or more likely, willing - to make the same concessions. I'm not even asserting that the SEC should or that it would be sensible to do any of these things, even for the long-term future of the Pac-10, but I think that they'll be far more willing and likely to do so, than the SEC.

I don't oppose Miami or FSU's entrees into the SEC because of their current football status (both "down" right now), but for more pragmatic reasons, namely, because they don't add any appreciable value to the conference (by the major categories, previously cited: TV footprint, revenue, etc.) beyond what the SEC now fully enjoys, namely, the fact that we already own the State of Florida with the Gators (who play both Miami and FSU each season, anyway). You cannot say that an appreciably larger group of Floridians would watch more SEC games, nor that more recruits would elect SEC schools than now do so. I just don't see these schools - either together, or respectively as individual institutions - raising the stature of or otherwise significantly adding to the SEC, whatsoever. I respect the opinions of those who may know more about these schools than I, or who believe differently about their prospects for contributing to the SEC, but from my detached standpoint (I neither like nor dislike either school), it seems certain to the point of being self-evident that they are a notch below Texas and Oklahoma in regards to the attractiveness of adding them to the SEC, and significantly so. Proponents of their entrance are, at best, simply expressing some feelings of loyalty to those schools or wishful thinking that they may gain admission into the SEC, and at worst, delusionally believe that Miami and FSU are not far closer to the Georgia Tech's and West Virginia's of the world, than they are to Texas and Oklahoma. The SEC might be forced to settle for one or both of them, but it won't be their first (or maybe even second or third option) so long as Texas and Oklahoma remain possibilities. Texas and Oklahoma are like Charlize Theron and Cameron Diaz. Miami and FSU are like Tina Fey and Fergie....not wholly unattractive, do-able, but not your first options. But it's not like they are the worst choices, either, because in my opinion, adding Georgia Tech is like taking your sister to prom....and the after-party, West Virginia is like adding Larry the Cable Guy, and Virginia Tech is like adding Andy Dick.

Some other tidbits to add to the conversation that I've heard or elsewhere read:

There's a lot of talk about how these schools will, "culturally fit" with one another, so I wonder how Baylor's religious affiliations are going to fit into the notably secular institutions of the Pac-10? Conversely, Austin, Texas prides itself on its Bohemian sub/counter-culture, and a move to the Pac-10 might be just the opportunity to go, "full-hippie". Of course, as Dallas, TX is home to one of the largest and most integrated homosexual populations in America (both the Dallas Sheriff and its District Judge are openly gay), perhaps Texas would be a closer cultural fit to the Pac-10 than the SEC. Of course this is not to say that the SEC-based cities doesn't also have their own fluorishing and widely-integrated homosexual communities (and whom which we are thankful to have, if only for their many and diverse contributions to our cities and towns), as well, but I wouldn't think them to be comparable to those others which are located in predominantly Pac-10 areas of the country. Simply, any notion that Texans are somehow more culturally akin to Southerners, or irreparably different from those in the Pac-10, may be in error. Or not. Just something to think about.

The $17M (or whatever it is) is only that which the SEC gets from its TV package with CBS / ESPN.....and does not include additional revenues which the individual teams may negotiate with other outlets, and which they would retain for themselves, without sharing with anyone. So, if Texas wanted to start its own network, it could do so as a member of the SEC....but not the Pac-10, as it would be an, "all-rights in" (meaning, all rights would be shares amongst all, in one package) deal. Sounds like a way for Texas to get what it wants, after all.

If we're at the point that there is concern that Texas can't leave without Baylor.....how is it possible that they could leave without A&M? Well, its not, really. And who's the one AD who has both stated that the SEC would be an option (implicitly confirming that some discussions have been held) if the Big 12 went away, and who has been most vocal in criticizing the prospect of Big 12 teams travelling long distances to Pac-10 sites.....that would be the A&M AD. While everyone's looking at Texas (who seems to be revelling in being so heavily courted by everyone), the SEC might have attempted or has actually ensured that they won't be able to just do anything they want, at least without warning, knowing that A&M would want to go to the SEC. A step further, suppose that the Pac-10 sends out their invites to all six schools, and immediately thereafter, the SEC invites A&M.....and they accept their invitation, becoming members of the SEC. Would the Pac-10 have the stomach to fight the TX legislature (and the current TX Governor, who is an A&M grad) to gain their allowance for Texas to come to the Pac-10 without A&M? How long would that take? What would happen to the rest of their invites, in the meantime? Does anyone believe that OK and the others leave for the Pac-10.....not knowing what TX may be forced / allowed to do. What would the other conferences be doing during this time? After seeing the Pac-10's hyper-aggressive manuevering suddenly becoming bogged down over Texas, they wouldn't be sitting idly by while awaiting other events to unfold, you can be certain of that. The Big 10 likely leaps to go slightly further South, and extends invites to OK & OK State, as would the SEC. Knowing that its most likely TX will have to follow A&M, and most preferring the SEC themselves (as is widely rumored), the Oklahoma pair accept the SEC's invitation, following A&M. Now, TX might be allowed to go to the Pac-10 eventually, but if they want to keep the rivalry with both the Aggies and the Red River rivalry with OK....they'll need to come to the SEC for that. The TX legislature, now seeing the inconceivability of the SEC taking all four TX schools (they've already taken 3 at this point - OK, OK ST & AM), might then be open to protecting and keeping the main Texas school rivalries intact - and that's TX and A&M.......and that's the SEC.

Much to the Longhorn's chagrin, the road to mega-conference expansion might not go through Austin, after all, but College Station, instead.

My hope - and that's all it is, really - is that such a scenario is what Slive means when he said that the SEC would be "thoughtful and strategic"......and is not waiting to scramble to find a dance partner once he hears the opening notes of some Bel Biv Devoe slow-jam.
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It is all clear as mud. I am most interested in which team makes the first move. It feels like Texas is holding the aces right now.
 
It is all clear as mud. I am most interested in which team makes the first move. It feels like Texas is holding the aces right now.

I think Texas is about to find out no one wants the cousins coming over. Baylor, A&M and Tech are all going to want in on the money too.
 
Texas doesn't want the cousins to begin with.

The whole reason the Big XII is about to go up in flames is their revenue structure.

Anyways, this is all NBA Free Agency and Texas is Lebron James. He's the first domino. Anybody who tells you they know what's going to happen is completely full of it. It's 100% speculation right now.

I am, however interested in the fact that the Pac-10 seems to be making the first moves here (and quickly) so they can get serious leverage for big TV contract bucks by years end.
 
Texas doesn't want the cousins to begin with.

The whole reason the Big XII is about to go up in flames is their revenue structure.

Anyways, this is all NBA Free Agency and Texas is Lebron James. He's the first domino. Anybody who tells you they know what's going to happen is completely full of it. It's 100% speculation right now.

I am, however interested in the fact that the Pac-10 seems to be making the first moves here (and quickly) so they can get serious leverage for big TV contract bucks by years end.

I agree.

Had Texas ever been allowed to leave the other three, they would have long-since done so, and never looked back.

I also agree that everything is speculative right now. The Pac-10 might have purposefully leaked something out just to settle some concerns (amongst their fanbases, AD's, universities) that they weren't similiarly looking around. Up until last week, no one was really talking about the Pac-10 doing much, if anything, at all. The timing of the Orangeblood report - amidst or immediately adjacent to the Big 12 meetings - was too convenient to be a coincidence, in my opinion. However, I think that it was more to give the Big 12 a moment of pause, to not decide either to separate or commit to staying together (either would likely severely hinder or all-out devastate the Pac-10's plans, in any direction), until the Pac-10 could make a more formal offer.

Despite all of this, my greatest concern is that the rumblings stop.....and all goes quiet. Were that to happen, the next thing I would expect to hear would be the final thing said on the matter. After a matter of days or weeks of silence, you'd just see it come across the ESPN ticker....that the Big 12 and Pac-10 are merging....and the SEC never has a chance to make a play.

Again, I hope that Slive isn't either arrogant or foolish enough to believe that he can just sit and watch Texas and Oklahoma leave for the Pac-10 before he decides to do something, mistakenly believing that adding two lesser schools would be a sufficient response. It wouldn't, at least in my opinion.
 
I agree.

Had Texas ever been allowed to leave the other three, they would have long-since done so, and never looked back.

I also agree that everything is speculative right now. The Pac-10 might have purposefully leaked something out just to settle some concerns (amongst their fanbases, AD's, universities) that they weren't similiarly looking around. Up until last week, no one was really talking about the Pac-10 doing much, if anything, at all. The timing of the Orangeblood report - amidst or immediately adjacent to the Big 12 meetings - was too convenient to be a coincidence, in my opinion. However, I think that it was more to give the Big 12 a moment of pause, to not decide either to separate or commit to staying together (either would likely severely hinder or all-out devastate the Pac-10's plans, in any direction), until the Pac-10 could make a more formal offer.

Despite all of this, my greatest concern is that the rumblings stop.....and all goes quiet. Were that to happen, the next thing I would expect to hear would be the final thing said on the matter. After a matter of days or weeks of silence, you'd just see it come across the ESPN ticker....that the Big 12 and Pac-10 are merging....and the SEC never has a chance to make a play.

Again, I hope that Slive isn't either arrogant or foolish enough to believe that he can just sit and watch Texas and Oklahoma leave for the Pac-10 before he decides to do something, mistakenly believing that adding two lesser schools would be a sufficient response. It wouldn't, at least in my opinion.

or...actually thinking that FSU/Miami is equal to or greater than Texas or OU. I understand that. I'm not convinced that Texas or to a lesser extent OU would do anything without shopping for a counter offer from the Big Ten or the SEC.
 
Texas doesn't want the cousins to begin with.

The whole reason the Big XII is about to go up in flames is their revenue structure.

Anyways, this is all NBA Free Agency and Texas is Lebron James. He's the first domino. Anybody who tells you they know what's going to happen is completely full of it. It's 100% speculation right now.

I am, however interested in the fact that the Pac-10 seems to be making the first moves here (and quickly) so they can get serious leverage for big TV contract bucks by years end.

Correct but they are baggage that goes wherever the Longhorns go.

The Lebron James comparison is spot on. I can't wait to see how it all plays out and how the NCAA spins this as anything other than a cash grab. The super conference idea throws out the amateur status of these athletes IMO.

Kudos to the PAC-10 for jumping all over what's available.
 
College football has been far from amateur for a long, long time.

Oh I know but this cash grab destroys it, completely blows away any notion that schools play sports for anything but money.

I just enjoy watching the NCAA try and force feed people what they want it to be instead of calling it what it is.
 
Oh I know but this cash grab destroys it, completely blows away any notion that schools play sports for anything but money.

I just enjoy watching the NCAA try and force feed people what they want it to be instead of calling it what it is.

Oh the irony of the Big Ten Network and all of their academic ideals!
 

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