Peyton manning= best qb ever

[thebjd]

I know the legend of Montana and I've seen the highlights but I was just a kid when his time in San Fran was winding down. Its hard fro me to really debate his place one way or the other since I didn't experience it the way I have Manning and Brady.

I will say the impact Bill Walsh had on his career is very similar to Bellichick on Brady. Manning has not had that during his career which should be factored in when discussing individual accomplishments.

Brady has two Superbowl losses now so Montana is basically alone if championships are the determining factor. Montana also never threw an interception in a Superbowl and won two titles without Rice. If you needed a QB for one game with everything on the line it would probably be Montana. If a career body of work is the criteria then the greatest will be Manning in my opinion when all is said and done. He is the best in the league right now so he is not done yet.

 

[BadJerry20]

Brady has two Superbowl losses now so Montana is basically alone if championships are the determining factor. Montana also never threw an interception in a Superbowl and won two titles without Rice. If you needed a QB for one game with everything on the line it would probably be Montana. If a career body of work is the criteria then the greatest will be Manning in my opinion when all is said and done. He is the best in the league right now so he is not done yet.

68% 11-0 tds ints 120 rating...dominance...

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

Florida.
Just saying.

 

[Titans4Vols]

Peyton's big game failures, going back to his time here, makes me hold back from calling him the greatest ever. He's certainly up there..but those big games left a really bad taste in my mouth as a Vol fan, and he didn't end up doing too much better for the Colts(and now Broncos).

 

[Volfan2012]

I just got done looking at some statistics and records and currently Peyton is a 483 touchdown passes, only 25 away from beating favre to be number 1. Peyton is currently at 64,296 passing yards and favre had 71,838. Peyton is on the tail of favre and will soon be the best quarterback to ever step foot on the field. I know this may be a little off topic to this forum just wanted to let everyone know just how close he is to being the best. thanks

He needs two good seasons to pass Favre in all time yardage. He will have all the records needs 269 yards in his last game to become the single season passing yardage leader. For a guy that couldn't win the Heipsman seems to be a really good player.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

Peyton's big game failures, going back to his time here, makes me hold back from calling him the greatest ever. He's certainly up there..but those big games left a really bad taste in my mouth as a Vol fan, and he didn't end up doing too much better for the Colts(and now Broncos).

This is me.
I couldn't care less what he did with the Colts.
If he beats Florida, another possible NC and he wins the Heisman.
Sorry, I'm all Vol. What he has done as a pro is good for shizz and giggles, but what mattered is left lacking imo.

 

[vols-1]

I say stats, they are individual. Championship's are a team effort

Manning's stats are about the same as Drew Brees. They both have 65% completion rate. Factor in that Brees is three years younger and there passing yards will be identical if they retired at the same age.

 

[hndog609]

If he beats Florida, another possible NC and he wins the Heisman.

This goes back to the same argument that's been made on and off through this thread. "He" could never have beaten FL. No QB ever has nor will ever, by themselves, beat FL or anyone else. People celebrate "Tee's" defeating FL. Tee was 7-20 for 64 yds in that game. The offense managed a whole 235yds and 7 first downs. The ferocity of the D won that game.

Football is a team sport. Literally the greatest player to ever walk the earth could spend a career and never even win a game, nevermind a championship, if it turned out the cast around him was weak enough. That's just the nature of team sports...and why it's all but impossible to make meaningful comparisons between players beyond a certain point.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

This goes back to the same argument that's been made on and off through this thread. "He" could never have beaten FL. No QB ever has nor will ever, by themselves, beat FL or anyone else. People celebrate "Tee's" defeating FL. Tee was 7-20 for 64 yds in that game. The offense managed a whole 235yds and 7 first downs. The ferocity of the D won that game.

Football is a team sport. Literally the greatest player to ever walk the earth could spend a career and never even win a game, nevermind a championship, if it turned out the cast around him was weak enough. That's just the nature of team sports...and why it's all but impossible to make meaningful comparisons between players beyond a certain point.

So, what you are saying is the team ralleyed more behind Tee than they did Peyton. All I need to know.

 

[hndog609]

So, what you are saying is the team ralleyed more behind Tee than they did Peyton. All I need to know.

I'm not even sure if serious. At any rate nothing I typed suggests I said that. I said hanging wins/losses/championships on an individual player in a team sport is pretty much folly regardless of who we're talking about.

I have heard some suggest that under Manning the team might have just come to "expect" Manning to bail them out somehow while under Tee they knew they couldn't count on that. Impossible to say how much there is to that but I have heard it posited.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

We're lucky we have the best and most objective criteria to judge this debate.

When Brady went down suddenly, his team still went 2x over 0.500.

When Manning went down with time to prepare, his team had to luck into two wins for the entire season.

That's GOAT metrics right there.

The Montana debate is interesting. The Brady debate is a non-starter for me. Also, it was some really good coaching and some dumb luck that New Orleans won that Super Bowl. Without that onside kick, New Orleans gets hammered, and they still had to just execute out of their minds in the 2nd half to win that game.

 

[thebjd]

This is me.
I couldn't care less what he did with the Colts.
If he beats Florida, another possible NC and he wins the Heisman.
Sorry, I'm all Vol. What he has done as a pro is good for shizz and giggles, but what mattered is left lacking imo.

He only played them once at home and put up almost 500 yards passing in that game and lost by less than a touchdown. He also played well his sophomore year in the Swamp until the rain came and everyone started fumbling. He beat Bama three times (two on the road) and UGA three times as well. He was a badass in college too losing only one home game in his final three seasons. Who beat UF in Gainesville in the mid-90's? The teams Clausen beat in Gainesville were not close to as good as those Manning played.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

He only played them once at home and put up almost 500 yards passing in that game and lost by less than a touchdown. He also played well his sophomore year in the Swamp until the rain came and everyone started fumbling. He beat Bama three times (two on the road) and UGA three times as well. He was a badass in college too losing only one home game in his final three seasons. Who beat UF in Gainesville in the mid-90's? The teams Clausen beat in Gainesville were not close to as good as those Manning played.

Clausen beat the gators but Peyton's team lost to them?
Right.

 

[thebjd]

Clausen beat the gators but Peyton's team lost to them?
Right.

Peyton beat Bama yet Clausen lost to them? It goes both ways. The '95-97 Gators were a bit better than the 2000-2003 Gators. Casey was blown out by UF and Bama at home in the same season. Also blown out at home by Miami that year and by Maryland in the Chik-fil-A Bowl. I don't remember a UT team getting demolished in Neyland with Manning at the helm. I am obviously biased since that was when I was a student.

 

[615vols]

I'm just one of those who doesn't like the who has more rings angle..
Trent dilfer has more rings than Marino. Was dilfer better than Marino? No, just benefitted from an amazing defense.
Brady is clearly one of the best all time, but he's also played for a great coach and had better overall defenses than Peyton.
You can put anyone back at qb, but if the opposing team is gashing the defense and limiting offensive possession while putting up points on most drives, chances are you lose.
I mean crap, raheem Moore doesn't let a raven wr behind him in an obvious hail Mary situation broncos likely play for super bowl last year. Its a team game. Peyton is the goat imo.

 

[jp1]

The Patriots missed the playoffs that year.

Great point, but if you were to tell the whole story you would see they finished 11-5. Thats a playoff team every year except 2008. My point still stands.....how many did the Colts win without Peyton?

 

[jp1]

Here's an interesting stat. Since Manning has been in the NFL his teams have only ranked IN the top 10 defensively 5 times. Since Brady has been in the league his defenses have been ranked OUT of the top 10 only 3 times. Go look at their defensive rankings for Bradys SB wins. Ranked top 5 all 3 wins.

Only argument I will entertain of a better QB in my mind is Montana. That ones a toss up to me.

 

[vols-1]

Here's an interesting stat. Since Manning has been in the NFL his teams have only ranked IN the top 10 defensively 5 times. Since Brady has been in the league his defenses have been ranked OUT of the top 10 only 3 times. Go look at their defensive rankings for Bradys SB wins. Ranked top 5 all 3 wins.

Only argument I will entertain of a better QB in my mind is Montana. That ones a toss up to me.

The Colts/Broncos were ranked top 10 in total defense 6 times with Manning, while the Pats were ranked Top 10 in total defense 8 times with Brady.

2012 NFL Opposition & Defensive Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[Volosaurus rex]

A more insightful comparison may not be the number of top 10 defenses each quarterback played with but, rather, the relative distance in scoring defense between the two quarterbacks’ teams and how that correlated to success on a year-to-year basis. Beginning with 2001, when Brady became the starting quarterback for New England, we see the following:

2001: NE (6th), 272 points; INDY (31st), 486 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 6-10.
2002: NE (17th), 346 points; INDY (7th), 313 points. INDY finishes 10-6, NE 9-7.
2003: NE (1st), 238 points; INDY (20th), 336 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 12-4.
2004: NE (2nd), 260 points; INDY (19th), 351 points. NE wins Super Bowl, INDY finishes 12-4.
2005: NE (17th), 338 points; INDY (2nd), 247 points. INDY finishes 14-2, NE finishes 10-6.
2006: NE (2nd), 237 points; INDY (23rd), 360 points. Both teams finish 12-4. INDY wins Super Bowl.
2007: NE (4th), 274 points; INDY (1st), 262 points. NE finishes 16-0, INDY finishes 13-3.
2008: NE (8th), 309 points; INDY (7th), 298 points. NE finishes 11-5, INDY finishes 12-4. Brady was injured in opener and missed the rest of season.
2009: NE (5th), 285 points; INDY (8th), 307 points. NE finishes 10-6, INDY finishes 14-2.
2010: NE (8th), 313 points; INDY (23rd), 388 points. NE finishes 14-2, INDY finishes 10-6.
2011: NE (15th), 342 points; INDY (28th), 430 points. NE finishes 13-3, INDY finishes 2-14. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE (9th), 331 points; Denver (4th), 289 points. NE finishes 12-4, Denver finishes 13-3.
2013: NE (9th), 318 points; Denver (22nd), 385 points. NE is currently 11-4 and Denver is currently 12-3.

What can we conclude from this data? New England’s three Super Bowl victories during the Brady era were supported by defenses that ranked 6th, 1st and 2nd, respectively. Peyton’s one Super Bowl ring, on the other hand, is a true statistical outlier; it was won despite a defense that ranked 23rd in scoring defense.

Brady has never played with a defense ranked lower than 17th in this category; he has enjoyed the support of ten top 10 defenses and 6 top six defenses. From 2001 until the present, the Patriots’ average defensive ranking in this category has been 7.9.

Defensive rankings of teams that Peyton has quarterbacked have been much more variable. Their average ranking throughout this period has been 15th, but this does not begin to tell the whole picture. Peyton has enjoyed the support of six top ten defenses and three top five defenses; he also has been saddled with six defenses, including the present one, which have ranked 20th or lower in scoring defense.

There is no question that Peyton and Brady are the two best quarterbacks of their generation. Because of the hit-or-miss nature of defenses he has played with, Peyton has had to directly shoulder more of the responsibility for the success of his teams than Brady has over the course of his career. You can nitpick as to who individually is the better clutch performer over various portions of their respective careers, but you can also find supporting evidence here for the oldest fundamental truth in football. Even when you are talking about QBs as great as these two, defense wins championships.

 

[BadJerry20]

You have far too much free time on your hands my friend.

 

[BenGrimm]

A more insightful comparison may not be the number of top 10 defenses each quarterback played with but, rather, the relative distance in scoring defense between the two quarterbacks’ teams and how that correlated to success on a year-to-year basis.

...

.

Thanks for that break down.

Worth noting on that 2006 Indy team is that Bob Sanders was hurt the majority of the season. In week 17 the colts D gave up something like 330 yards rushing to Jax in a must win game for play off seeding (they still won iirc). Sanders returned for the playoffs and it was like a different team.

It would be interesting to see how the other SB winners of the same time frame stacked up.

 

[southgatevol]

Posted this in another thread. In playoff games, Manning's defenses gave up 3.2 more points than did Brady's defenses. Also Manning's defenses gave up 3.3 more points than Montana's defenses. Doesn't seem like much but if you flip those few points per game, Manning would be 13-7, Brady 10-14, Montana 13-10.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Thanks for that break down.

Worth noting on that 2006 Indy team is that Bob Sanders was hurt the majority of the season. In week 17 the colts D gave up something like 330 yards rushing to Jax in a must win game for play off seeding (they still won iirc). Sanders returned for the playoffs and it was like a different team.

It would be interesting to see how the other SB winners of the same time frame stacked up.

Yes, I have never seen one safety make as much difference in a team's run defense as Bob Sanders did that year. As for your last statement, ask and ye shall receive.

The 49ers during Montana’s era were even more consistently dominant on defense than the Patriots, with Brady at the helm:

1981 (Montana’s first full year as starter): 2nd (250 pts.). SF wins Super Bowl.
1982 (23rd in the strike-shortened nine-game season), 206 points. 3-6 record.
1983 (4th), 293 points. 10-6 record.
1984 (1st), 227 points. SF is 15-1, wins Super Bowl.
1985 (2nd to the other-worldly Chicago Bears defense), 263 points. 10-6 record.
1986 (3rd), 247 points. 10-5-1 (Montana played only eight games).
1987 (3rd), 253 points. 13-2 record (Montana started only 11 games).
1988 (8th), 294 points. 10-6 regular season, SF wins Super Bowl.
1989 (3rd), 253 points. 14-2 regular season, SF wins Super Bowl.

So, as phenomenally as Montana played in his Super Bowl appearances, he also had the 2nd, 1st, 8th and 3rd best scoring defenses, respectively, at his back.

As for the Steelers, during Bradshaw’s era, they played 14-game regular seasons until 1978. Taking into consideration only the years bracketed by their Super Bowl victories, Pittsburgh’s scoring defense rankings were as follows:

1974 (2nd), 189 points. 10-3-1 regular season, wins Super Bowl.
1975 (2nd), 162 points. 12-2 regular season, wins Super Bowl.
1976 (1st), 138 points. 10-4 regular season.
1977 (17th), 243 points. 9-5 regular season.
1978 (1st), 195 points. 14-2 regular season, wins Super Bowl.
1979 (7th), 262 points. 12-4 regular season wins Super Bowl.

The Steelers’ average scoring defense ranking for the four Super Bowl champions was 3rd out of a 28-team league.

All data were excerpted from Pro-Football-Reference.com - Pro Football Statistics and History.


All of this really makes you appreciate more fully what Peyton has accomplished as an NFL quarterback. He has been dealt a hand more comparable to that of Dan Marino than Tom Brady or Joe Montana, i.e. excellent skilled position players and, for the most part, mediocre defenses.

There is no question that Montana and Brady were/are extraordinary quarterbacks. However, it can be argued that there is also a certain "McCarron effect" here as well. When you have a consistently strong defense at your back, you can afford to be highly efficient and resist the temptation to make risky, gunslinger-like throws a la Marino or Favre.

 

[KBVol]

You have far too much free time on your hands my friend.

What he has is a well researched, well thought out, analytical and fair-minded post IMO.

 

[KBVol]

Clausen beat the gators but Peyton's team lost to them?
Right.

You're not gonna argue Casey was the better QB are ya Doyle?