Peyton manning= best qb ever

[BenGrimm]

Yes, I have never seen one safety make as much difference in a team's run defense as Bob Sanders did that year. As for your last statement, ask and ye shall receive.

The 49ers during Montana’s era were even more consistently dominant on defense than the Patriots, with Brady at the helm:

1981 (Montana’s first full year as starter): 2nd (250 pts.). SF wins Super Bowl.
1982 (23rd in the strike-shortened nine-game season), 206 points. 3-6 record.
1983 (4th), 293 points. 10-6 record.
1984 (1st), 227 points. SF is 15-1, wins Super Bowl.
1985 (2nd to the other-worldly Chicago Bears defense), 263 points. 10-6 record.
1986 (3rd), 247 points. 10-5-1 (Montana played only eight games).
1987 (3rd), 253 points. 13-2 record (Montana started only 11 games).
1988 (8th), 294 points. 10-6 regular season, SF wins Super Bowl.
1989 (3rd), 253 points. 14-2 regular season, SF wins Super Bowl.

So, as phenomenally as Montana played in his Super Bowl appearances, he also had the 2nd, 1st, 8th and 3rd best scoring defenses, respectively, at his back.

As for the Steelers, during Bradshaw’s era, they played 14-game regular seasons until 1978. Taking into consideration only the years bracketed by their Super Bowl victories, Pittsburgh’s scoring defense rankings were as follows:

1974 (2nd), 189 points. 10-3-1 regular season, wins Super Bowl.
1975 (2nd), 162 points. 12-2 regular season, wins Super Bowl.
1976 (1st), 138 points. 10-4 regular season.
1977 (17th), 243 points. 9-5 regular season.
1978 (1st), 195 points. 14-2 regular season, wins Super Bowl.
1979 (7th), 262 points. 12-4 regular season wins Super Bowl.

The Steelers’ average scoring defense ranking for the four Super Bowl champions was 3rd out of a 28-team league.

All data were excerpted from Pro-Football-Reference.com - Pro Football Statistics and History.


All of this really makes you appreciate more fully what Peyton has accomplished as an NFL quarterback. He has been dealt a hand more comparable to that of Dan Marino than Tom Brady or Joe Montana, i.e. excellent skilled position players and, for the most part, mediocre defenses.

There is no question that Montana and Brady were/are extraordinary quarterbacks. However, it can be argued that there is also a certain "McCarron effect" here as well. When you have a consistently strong defense at your back, you can afford to be highly efficient and resist the temptation to make risky, gunslinger-like throws a la Marino or Favre.

Nice work.

Seems that Super Bowl winners avg a top 3-5 scoring defense regardless of what era of football we are discussing.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Nice work.

Seems that Super Bowl winners avg a top 3-5 scoring defense regardless of what era of football we are discussing.

Pretty close to that. If you go all the way back to the first two Super Bowls, which pitted NFL champions vs. AFL Champions, the victorious Packers finished first in that category in 1966 and 3rd in 1967, yielding 163 and 209 points, respectively. The undefeated 1972 Dolphins set NFL rushing records which, I believe, stand to this day, but they also had the league's best defense, surrendering only 171 points. The '73 Dolphins repeated as Super Bowl champions and led the league again in scoring defense, with 150 points. If you look at the Aikman-Smith-Irvin Cowboys, here is their defensive ranking in Super Bowl-winning seasons:

1992: 5th (243 points)
1993: 2nd (229 points)
1995: 3rd (291 points)

In 1994, for good measure, they finished 3rd (248 points) and went 12-4.

There are, of course, anomalies, but Brett Favre's one Super Bowl victory, as a Packer, occurred in 1996, when they also had the best scoring defense in the NFL, surrendering only 210 points. And, of course, the 1985 Bears and 2000 Ravens are classic examples of teams with phenomenal defenses and, at best, mediocre offenses and quarterbacks. Both teams led the NFL in scoring defense, with 198 and 165 points, respectively. You can also add the 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who were 1st in scoring defense (196 points), 27th in rushing offense, 15th in passing offense and 18th in scoring offense, but managed to win the Super Bowl convincingly that year.

 

[ukvols]

I love watching Peyton as much as anyone on here, but you cannot make a rational argument that he is the best considering his record against Brady and how many rings they have in comparison. Now, If he gets a SB this year the whole dynamic changes, but until then one can rationally argue that he isn't.

Not trying to be a jerk, but just saying it how it is.

Playing for a Boston-area team with Belichick as your coach helps.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

One thing is certain. This thread has done more to quantify the maxim "Defense wins Championships" than anything I've ever seen.

I think it has established Manning as the GOAT as well.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

And we can credit that truth to, perhaps more than any other single person, that defensive mastermind, Robert Reese Neyland.

 

[CoachLogan74]

I've always struggled with the amount of offensive talent each Manning and Brady had around them. I've always heard people say if you flipped the quarterbacks that Manning would do so much better than Brady, but starting in 96 which was the foundation of the Colts run(they drafted Harrison in 96 and Tarik Glenn, LT, in 97) the Colts drafted 10 offensive players and 4 defensive players... Not including Peyton's first couple of years getting to play with Marshall Faulk. Does this not help Peyton's offensive prowess? Or did he "make" all those first round draft picks look good?

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

I've always struggled with the amount of offensive talent each Manning and Brady had around them. I've always heard people say if you flipped the quarterbacks that Manning would do so much better than Brady, but starting in 96 which was the foundation of the Colts run(they drafted Harrison in 96 and Tarik Glenn, LT, in 97) the Colts drafted 10 offensive players and 4 defensive players... Not including Peyton's first couple of years getting to play with Marshall Faulk. Does this not help Peyton's offensive prowess? Or did he "make" all those first round draft picks look good?

Here's the answer.

When Brady went down suddenly, his team was still 6 games over 0.500.

When Peyton went down, with plenty of time to prepare, his Division Champions barely won two games.

That's GOAT all day long.

 

[BadJerry20]

What he has is a well researched, well thought out, analytical and fair-minded post IMO.

What I had was a joke.

 

[JAL]

the weapons manning has?? If there was any other quarterback throwing to them they would look average at best. Welker was suppose to be the best one and he has actually been not as good as projected. The 2 Thomas's came pretty much out of nowhere and have been dominating along with eric decker who has been on fire.

I was reffering to this year. You must be confused. Brady has rookies and had Gronk for like 4 weeks. Not to mention that his defense has suffered major injuries at every level. Plus, he did comeback from 24 down to beat a Peyton-led team. Face reality.

 

[JAL]

By the way, Merry Christmas!

 

[bamabobo]

Another thing to consider is how much practice reps qbs get. I've heard from a few guys I know who got to play in the big time for a few years that most starters usually get 75% of reps and backups get other 25%. The reason I bring that up is I read an article a few years ago bout the Colts when PM was there the reporter asked (paraphrasing) "Why does PM take all the reps and the backups get none?" The reply came from OL coach Howard Mudd - "If 18 goes down we're f$$ked and we don't practice f$$ked."

Also the year the Pats went 11-5 with Cassell was one season after they went 18-1 (16-0 regular season) so it was a pretty good team overall. And I think Colts were 10-6 with PM then next year without him they were 2-14. Win differential was 5 less for Pats and 8 less for Colts. So I don't consider +3 to be a huge gap when you compare one of the all time great teams (16-0 Pats) vs an average playoff team (10-6 Colts).

Charlie Weis said back in 2005 (I think) when he was OC for Pats (paraphrasing) "There are about 90 quarterbacks in the NFL when you consider that most teams keep three on the roster. And only about fifteen of em are any good." I think that has more to do with the Colts collapse during PM's injury year. You take away one of the greatest qbs in nfl history and replace him with Curtis Painter (6th rd draft pick with a slightly different career arc than another 6th rounder you may have heard of named Tom Brady) who briefly appeared in his rookie season in 09 then didn't get another snap in a real game until that injury season after Kerry Collins (another first rounder who had an up and down career) was injured. So an inexperienced backup with almost no significant reps thrust into starting lineup? Usually a recipe for disaster.

And as for Brady at Michigan someone alluded to earlier he was continuously being held back because higher ups wanted the Anointed One Drew Henson to be the qb. Similar to what happened with Major Applewhite and Chris Simms at Texas. (Oh crap, I just mentioned Chris Simms on a Vol message board. My bad.)

As for who had better defense Brady has had the edge in that category more often. As for who has had better offensive personnel to work with, that's PM's big edge. Someone mentioned earlier they didn't think PM would work well with BB. I think that's an excellent point. To be as good as he is imo he needs more leeway to do what he wants. But that also may have held back TB from having better stats because he probably adapted his HC's mindset/gameplan style. Which style is better? Whichever one is winning at the time. 07 was the only real wide open offense that Pats ran. And even then they were limited (BB said on an espn special during that time "If they stop Welker and Moss we're done because we've got no one else we can rely on." They have tried since but they have never had the horses to run it like the colts (did) and now broncos. So I think the better defense vs better supporting offensive personnel is a wash.

Arguments for Brady/Manning will never end. For me, I'd be happy with either on my team though I'd rather have a mobile qb like Aaron Rodgers running my offense.

Keep it up vol fans, yall got the best board around.

 

[KBVol]

Peyton's big game failures, going back to his time here, makes me hold back from calling him the greatest ever. He's certainly up there..but those big games left a really bad taste in my mouth as a Vol fan, and he didn't end up doing too much better for the Colts(and now Broncos).

The bad taste of the '97 Florida loss was washed away for me after Peyton bounced back to lead the team to the SEC Championship vs Auburn. UT was 39-6 with Peyton as starting QB and won a lot of big games while he was here. Unfortunately, most people just seem to remember that "Peyton never beat Florida". I remember that he beat Georgia, he beat Alabama, he beat Auburn, he beat Ohio State, he beat Virginia Tech....

Peyton is arguably the greatest player in UT's great history and arguably the greatest QB in SEC history.... period. By the time he retires from the NFL he'll hold virtually every all-time passing record and he'll also hold the record for the most wins all time for a starting QB. He also will have led his team to at least 2 SuperBowl appearances and at least 1 SuperBowl win. People can judge for themselves where Peyton stands.

It's difficult to say who's the greatest all time QB. How do you define it? The idea that SuperBowl wins is the default measurement it foolish to me. Way too many examples of guys who played on Super Bowl winning teams who were average, who were good but not great. There are also examples of QBs who were great but never won one.

I don't know if Peyton is the greatest of all time .... but he's sure as hell in the conversation with only 2 or 3 other guys.

 

[NashVol11]

"Everybody knows Terry Bradshaw is way better than Peyton and Brady. Count the Rings. Also, Eli is better than Brady because Brady can't beat Eli in the Super Bowl."

See how silly the super bowl argument looks when a little bit of logic is applied?

Peyton is the greatest. Period.

Trent Dilfer also has more rings than Dan Marino.

 

[NashVol11]

Peyton consistently won 10+ games in Indy with a garbage defense, a garbage OL, and most of the time, a garbage run game as well. I'm not really a homer at all, but to me he's the best and it really isn't all that close.

 

[NashVol11]

Oh, and his coaches were mostly subpar as well. Dungy is one of the most overrated there is.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Here's the answer.

When Brady went down suddenly, his team was still 6 games over 0.500.

When Peyton went down, with plenty of time to prepare, his Division Champions barely won two games.

That's GOAT all day long.

And it's been pointed out, Matt Cassel replaced Brady, and Cassel was good enough that the Chiefs traded for them and he started almost 4 seasons for him, and has started for the Vikings this year.

The Colts had Kerry Collins, who had already said he was retiring, Curtis Painter, and Dan Orlovsky. Collins got hurt and retired, and the other 2 are now backups. Neither of them have even come close to being starters for anyone else.

 

[NashVol11]

And it's been pointed out, Matt Cassel replaced Brady, and Cassel was good enough that the Chiefs traded for them and he started almost 4 seasons for him, and has started for the Vikings this year.

The Colts had Kerry Collins, who had already said he was retiring, Curtis Painter, and Dan Orlovsky. Collins got hurt and retired, and the other 2 are now backups. Neither of them have even come close to being starters for anyone else.

Matt Cassel is not the difference between 2-14 and 11-5.

 

[BadJerry20]

Peyton consistently won 10+ games in Indy with a garbage defense, a garbage OL, and most of the time, a garbage run game as well. I'm not really a homer at all, but to me he's the best and it really isn't all that close.

A garbage run game? He had a 1500 yard rusher 5 times and at least a 1000 yard rusher another 3 times. James also had a year around 980.

As for the line.

PM over 30 sacks 0 times
Over 20 sacks 7 times
Under 15 sacks 5 times
under 20 8 times

TB over 30 sacks 4 times
Over 20 sacks 12 times
under 15 sacks 0 times
Under 20 sacks 1 times

JM over 30 sacks 4 times
Over 20 sacks 9 times
Under 15 sacks 3 times
Under 20 sacks 4 times

Edit on JM he was under 15, 3 times

 

[NashVol11]

A garbage run game? He had a 1500 yard rusher 5 times and at least a 1000 yard rusher another 3 times. James also had a year around 980.

As for the line.

PM over 30 sacks 0 times
Over 20 sacks 7 times
Under 15 sacks 5 times
under 20 8 times

TB over 30 sacks 4 times
Over 20 sacks 12 times
under 15 sacks 0 times
Under 20 sacks 1 times

JM over 30 sacks 4 times
Over 20 sacks 9 times
Under 15 sacks 0 times
Under 20 sacks 4 times

It wasn't 5, and Addai especially didn't do much at all. 1000-yard seasons aren't big accomplishments by any stretch of the imagination.

Sack totals are also a terrible way to measure line quality, as Peyton is known for making his line look good by getting the ball out quickly. This gets mentioned in pretty much every TV broadcast he's had.

 

[BadJerry20]

I won't argue defense for a second, but the colts did a pretty good job of giving him good protection. He was routinely one of the least sacked guys in the NFL. Granted some of that is him getting rid of the ball quickly. But it's not like Joe and Brady held on to the ball for 20 seconds. Oddly enough making sure he had pieces around him via the draft, is kind of why the D sucked so much.

 

[BadJerry20]

It wasn't 5, and Addai especially didn't do much at all. 1000-yard seasons aren't big accomplishments by any stretch of the imagination.

Sack totals are also a terrible way to measure line quality, as Peyton is known for making his line look good by getting the ball out quickly. This gets mentioned in pretty much every TV broadcast he's had.

My bad 4 1500 yard rusher and 4 1000. 1000 is pretty easy, but how many has Brady had?

You're right Joe ran the west coast offense which didn't the ball out quickly. And Brady is known for hanging onto the ball for way to long. Come on man.

 

[BenGrimm]

My bad 4 1500 yard rusher and 4 1000. 1000 is pretty easy, but how many has Brady had?

You're right Joe ran the west coast offense which didn't the ball out quickly. And Brady is known for hanging onto the ball for way to long. Come on man.

Not saying the Colts OL was bad, it was pretty good for pass blocking. if we are going to talk playoff performances they certainly had some stinkers as a unit.

Brady does take sacks quicker than Manning. If it's not there and the pressure is coming he will lay down. I've noticed that for years. It's pretty much how the Giants beat them in both SBs.

 

[BadJerry20]

Not saying the Colts OL was bad, it was pretty good for pass blocking. if we are going to talk playoff performances they certainly had some stinkers as a unit.

Brady does take sacks quicker than Manning. If it's not there and the pressure is coming he will lay down. I've noticed that for years. It's pretty much how the Giants beat them in both SBs.

I'm not arguing that they haven't had bad performances, hell everyone has. But calling them garbage is ridiculous.

Even if Brady does take more, the sack discrepancy between the 2 is pretty big. The Colts did 2 things while Peyton was there, make sure he was protected and make sure he had weapons. Which was the problem honestly, in doing so they neglected the D.

 

[BadJerry20]

Peyton got sacked once every 31.3 attempts.

Brady is once every 19.2 attempts

Joe is once every 17.2, which honestly is shocking considering the west coast offense is getting the ball out quickly.

 

[BadJerry20]

I remember David Carr getting killed and had to look it up for sh!ts and giggles. He got sacked every 8.5 attempts. Lol