Peyton Manning's faith

[thebjd]

Also, I won't even get into how these same people justify their racism using the bible.

Racism is not a Christian tenet.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

Racism is not a Christian tenet.

Just referring to the people I know. It wasn't necessarily meant as a generalization.

 

[SuperDave]

As a wise man once said, "Good girls go to heaven. Bad girls go everywhere."
I've often enjoyed the company of bad girls.
I'd follow them anywhere.

 

[n_huffhines]

I won't speak for the experiences of others whom I have no firsthand knowledge of, but I think many theologians would tell you that the spirit works in mysterious ways and all will be given a chance to find the right path.

That said, you clearly have a great deal of interest in the subject of faith and religion as evidenced by your many posts (11 so far) in this thread. You should know that it is highly unlikely you will find satisfying and complete answers to such deep and profound topics on an internet messageboard. I would encourage you, instead, to seek out and study a variety of religious and theological writings throughout history to find the answers you are seeking.

I was a Christian minister once upon a time. I've read the old testament, new testament, book of Mormon, and Q'ran. I've been to every kind of Christian church, had long discussions with those of the Jewish faith, and attended Buddhist worship.

Message board is the best way to conduct these discussions because if people get butt hurt it's a lot less painful to deal with their BS.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

What if I made it my life's mission to convince all religious faiths that they are waisting their time? What if every time I saw a Christian all I did was tear their beliefs down and basically tell them they are in for a huge disappointment?

Isn't that in essence what you are doing with this post, and what many other non-believers (note: I need to use this term because if I use the word "atheists" then some people tend to complain) have been doing in many other threads? It is fairly evident from the title that this thread is about faith and Christianity (much like many other current active threads) and yet non-believers continue to participate in the discussion and at various levels post how ridiculous Believers are. It seems to me that many non-believers are making this "their mission". As such, I find your post somewhat hypocritical.

What if I went around neighborhoods knocking on doors handing out anti-religious pamphlets because I felt that as a nonbeliever it was my duty?
It would eventually get annoying, would it not?
The only time I speak on this subject is when a Christian takes it upon themselves to try and "save me".

So what Christian took it upon themselves in this thread to try and save you? Perhaps someone has done that with a post and I just missed it. Or, is it possible that you're choosing to speak on this subject without being "provoked"?

Please don't take this as a personal attack Doyle, as it is certainly not intended to be, and I enjoy many of your posts. However, the reality is (which can easily be verified by reading through various threads in this forum) that it has been mostly the non-believers who have taken it upon themselves to jump into a religious discussion to do exactly what you are complaining about.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

People very desperately want to believe there is something more to life than their corporal existence. Hence all the "god"/religion silliness. I mean, "heaven" and "hell"? C'mon, people. It's tough to accept that this is IT, but this is IT. Enjoy life now. What is truly off-putting is this bizarre christian need to push their nonsense on other people--see tim tebow and the OP here and missionaries and a million other examples. It's no coincidence that the least educated and poorest people tend to be the most religious. And then we have the silly people declaring that people who don't believe in their silliness don't have values. You can't run for president, or just about any other political office, unless you make a show of your religion so that you don't automatically lose the vote of simpletons who couldn't tell you where the UK is on a map but who will consider you a friend of the "devil" if you don't traipse into church weekly. Oh, America. And now, up with the heavy organ music...

Your Honor... I'd like to submit the above post into evidence as Exhibit #1 regarding my previous post.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

Isn't that in essence what you are doing with this post, and what many other non-believers (note: I need to use this term because if I use the word "atheists" then some people tend to complain) have been doing in many other threads? It is fairly evident from the title that this thread is about faith and Christianity (much like many other current active threads) and yet non-believers continue to participate in the discussion and at various levels post how ridiculous Believers are. It seems to me that many non-believers are making this "their mission". As such, I find your post somewhat hypocritical.



So what Christian took it upon themselves in this thread to try and save you? Perhaps someone has done that with a post and I just missed it. Or, is it possible that you're choosing to speak on this subject without being "provoked"?

Please don't take this as a personal attack Doyle, as it is certainly not intended to be, and I enjoy many of your posts. However, the reality is (which can easily be verified by reading through various threads in this forum) that it has been mostly the non-believers who have taken it upon themselves to jump into a religious discussion to do exactly what you are complaining about.

Fair enough.
I will post no further on this subject.

 

[Slydell]

So, if I live a good and decent life doing unto others as I would have them do unto me, but do not acknowledge God, I am doomed?

Sorry, Doyle. You're going to imaginary Hell.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Fair enough.
I will post no further on this subject.

That is certainly your prerogative, but you shouldn't make that decision based on anything I may have said. You didn't insult anyone, or call anyone "silly" in your post. I was just using your post to point out that much of what you are complaining about is also being done by non-believers, as much if not moreso, than Believers (as evidenced by the other post I referenced).

 

[GiveHimSIX!!!]

Doyle speak on how you feel. Period, whether right or wrong. We are alive for a purpose and I will say nomore myself.

 

[BigOrangeCrush32]

Follow me on this train of thought...

Is God a perfect Father?

What is your idea of a perfect Father?

Say you get home from work and your boy doesn't greet you immediately for whatever reason, but he behaved at school, was nice to his sister, and helped his Mom with chores. Then he wants to pal around with his Dad. Do you say, "Forget it. You didn't greet me when you had the chance, now get out of my presence."

I think most Christians' interpretation of God leaves something to be desired. We pick and choose what we take literally and figuratively from the Bible, and the idea that good people can/will be banished from God's presence doesn't jive. I think the Bible has been either (1) mistranslated, (2) misinterpreted, or (3) is false.

Let's say it's a little bit of 1 and 2.

sure you can say it's a little bit of 1 and 2...that way it fits YOUR needs and you will be able to do what you want and not feel guilty...

I know...I did it for the last 4 yrs...that is not what the Bible teaches...we don't mold Christ's ways to our needs...we are to be molded to his...I am probably the biggest sinner in here (I weigh 315 ) esp last 4 yrs since I have been backslid out of Church and God's ways. I just started going back and the conviction of my sinful ways have been heavy on my heart bc of the way I acted around people in person and on here. I ask everyone here, who reads this, to please forgive me of my sinful ways, the cursing, the belittling and name calling and just the selfish way I have acted. I hope to truly become a better Christian and have my acts speak louder than my words. But, I first had to admit I was wrong and that is the biggest step. I am truly sorry for my actions and once again ask for y'alls forgiveness.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

People very desperately want to believe there is something more to life than their corporal existence. Hence all the "god"/religion silliness. I mean, "heaven" and "hell"? C'mon, people. It's tough to accept that this is IT, but this is IT. Enjoy life now. What is truly off-putting is this bizarre christian need to push their nonsense on other people--see tim tebow and the OP here and missionaries and a million other examples. It's no coincidence that the least educated and poorest people tend to be the most religious. And then we have the silly people declaring that people who don't believe in their silliness don't have values. You can't run for president, or just about any other political office, unless you make a show of your religion so that you don't automatically lose the vote of simpletons who couldn't tell you where the UK is on a map but who will consider you a friend of the "devil" if you don't traipse into church weekly. Oh, America. And now, up with the heavy organ music...

I can agree with a fair amount of what you said above. Mainly, due to having been through and a part of some things you describe above. I think it ridicules Christianity when you see how church affiliates denounce and worse other church affiliates, all of whom claim to believe in the same Christ. Too, how members of each get all huffy and puffy when you don't accept their "message" which often isn't exactly what Jesus' message is once you are brought deeper into what that church believes. Folks who reject the message (or if you insist Jesus), it's their prerogative, so are the consequences. No reason to hate on them for opting out. Indeed, exhibiting Christian ideals in your dealing with them (actions vs. words) could do more to communicate that message than devilizing them. You know how it, you look in a mirror and whatever face you exhibit is shown right back at you.

Now, obviously I'm a believer. I've walked the path of doubt as well. One of the biggest factors for my staying a believer is due to a college teacher of religions. Not just Christianity but other religions too. In one of his Christian classes he pointed out something that just stayed with me to this very day. He talked about a group of mostly uneducated and simple peasants who followed Jesus. The rule of Rome was mighty. That might had destroyed the Carpenter Messian they believed and hoped in so thoroughly. Now they fearfully gathered in rooms of houses, fearing they'd be next, which was true if caught. My teacher said, "But something happened. Whether you believe Jesus made the post crucifiction appearances the Bible claims He did or not. Something happened. It turned these fearful, on the run, terrified men into men willing to face death by speaking out about this Christ. To travel to distant lands to carry the message. Something happened that was more powerful than their fear of death."

That may seem like a small thing to most people, but for me it sort of solidified my belief and removed the doubts I had at the time. Christianity is still with us today as one of the three great religions because, something happened to those men cowering in rooms and houses, staying out of sight and hopefully out the mind of the corrupt temple officials and unyielding power of Rome. Something happened.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Seriously? Wow. No disrespect intended but that seems a little dense. I am a Christian and I love looking for facts and questioning things. Its what helps me become closer to God.

Agreed! IMO the greatest sin is stupidity.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

I can agree with a fair amount of what you said above. Mainly, due to having been through and a part of some things you describe above. I think it ridicules Christianity when you see how church affiliates denounce and worse other church affiliates, all of whom claim to believe in the same Christ. Too, how members of each get all huffy and puffy when you don't accept their "message" which often isn't exactly what Jesus' message is once you are brought deeper into what that church believes. Folks who reject the message (or if you insist Jesus), it's their prerogative, so are the consequences. No reason to hate on them for opting out. Indeed, exhibiting Christian ideals in your dealing with them (actions vs. words) could do more to communicate that message than devilizing them. You know how it, you look in a mirror and whatever face you exhibit is shown right back at you.

Now, obviously I'm a believer. I've walked the path of doubt as well. One of the biggest factors for my staying a believer is due to a college teacher of religions. Not just Christianity but other religions too. In one of his Christian classes he pointed out something that just stayed with me to this very day. He talked about a group of mostly uneducated and simple peasants who followed Jesus. The rule of Rome was mighty. That might had destroyed the Carpenter Messian they believed and hoped in so thoroughly. Now they fearfully gathered in rooms of houses, fearing they'd be next, which was true if caught. My teacher said, "But something happened. Whether you believe Jesus made the post crucifiction appearances the Bible claims He did or not. Something happened. It turned these fearful, on the run, terrified men into men willing to face death by speaking out about this Christ. To travel to distant lands to carry the message. Something happened that was more powerful than their fear of death."

That may seem like a small thing to most people, but for me it sort of solidified my belief and removed the doubts I had at the time. Christianity is still with us today as one of the three great religions because, something happened to those men cowering in rooms and houses, staying out of sight and hopefully out the mind of the corrupt temple officials and unyielding power of Rome. Something happened.

There are zealots in every religion that will die for a cause. Martyrdom is not exclusive to Christianity. Muslim terrorists blow themselves up in the name of Allah all the time. Too many Christians practice their faith in a vacuum and don't realize there's really nothing THAT unique about their own faith. Did you know that there are at least 10 known Messianic-like figures in history that actually pre-date Jesus? Did you know that the Church did not officially recognize Jesus as being God until it was VOTED on in 325 AD by Constantine and his council?

 

[oregonvol]

I was a Christian minister once upon a time. I've read the old testament, new testament, book of Mormon, and Q'ran. I've been to every kind of Christian church, had long discussions with those of the Jewish faith, and attended Buddhist worship.

Message board is the best way to conduct these discussions because if people get butt hurt it's a lot less painful to deal with their BS.

I don't know what is stranger - the notion that an ordained Christian minister who went through seminary and has spent years studying all manner of religious texts comes on a sports forum asking to have rather trite questions about simple aspects of faith answered for him...or the notion that an INTERNET MESSAGEBOARD is the best venue to have deep meaningful discussions with a minimum of misunderstandings and personal attacks.

What if I made it my life's mission to convince all religious faiths that they are waisting their time? What if every time I saw a Christian all I did was tear their beliefs down and basically tell them they are in for a huge disappointment? What if I went around neighborhoods knocking on doors handing out anti-religious pamphlets because I felt that as a nonbeliever it was my duty?
It would eventually get annoying, would it not?
The only time I speak on this subject is when a Christian takes it upon themselves to try and "save me".

I look at it like this: I don't drink soda. Never liked the stuff. Got no use for it.

When I see billboards for it or ads on TV, in magazines, online, etc. as part of my every day routine, do I take offense? No, I just ignore them.

When every place I go has a soda vending machine, do I take it as a personal affront? A judgement on my dietary preferences? No. I'm not silly or super-sensitive.

Do I write letters to television networks asking them to ban all mention of soda? Do I think characters on tv shows should not be shown using soda, because it might offend me, even though a huge number of people use soda every day? Of course not. That would be absurd.

Do I seek out people who are enjoying soda in cafeterias and restaurants and pester them about why they like soda? Do I ask that they justify their enjoyment of soda to me? Or do I say to them "Why on earth are you morons drinking soda? Don't you fools realize that science almighty has not shown it to have any nutritional value! People can get diabetes from soda! How dare you enjoy it!"

No. It would be ridiculous for me to insert myself into something they enjoy and demand that they deal with my issues. And, so far, 2 of the top 3 posters in this thread (clearly stated in the title to be about faith) are non-believers who are criticizing and/or complaining about those who have faith or practice a religion. Makes one wonder exactly who is trying to force their beliefs on whom.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Well sir--thank you for making my point! The Bible declares that the CREATION reveals God to man:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

The FACT that God exists is seen clearly in the CREATION in the same way one may crack open a skull and observe the existence of the human brain--both have been CREATED by an eternal, Holy, loving, and Gracious God.

Denying God's existence is as illogical and foolish as it would be to deny that humans have a brain.

Once again, thanks for proving the point! eace2:

Umm no?

I dont care what the bible says, you said how do we know we have a brain since we can't see, hear, touch or smell it. I simply pointed out that we can see the brain so your example isn't valid.


I just have one question...how old do you believe the earth is?

Gods existence is not fact any way you slice it and creation isn't either. Some people believe we were created naturally over time not by some magical wizard in the sky who has some kind of insane power.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

I will post no further on this subject.

.

 

[Other_Guy]

So, if I live a good and decent life doing unto others as I would have them do unto me, but do not acknowledge God, I am doomed?

The Bible says our righteousness is as filthy rags. God is perfect and no sin can enter heaven. We are all sinners (all sin is equal). God made a way for us to be able to enter heaven (aqccepting Christ as Lord and Savior) and it has nothing to do with works because let's face it, no one is good enough to get into heaven. Id hate to go thru life scared wondering if I was bad enough that day to keep me out of heaven, never knowing if where I would end up. Luckily we have such a loving God he doesn't make us earn our way (cuz we'd fail). I have accepted His gift and I have never worried about my eternal security!

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

The Bible says our righteousness is as filthy rags. God is perfect and no sin can enter heaven. We are all sinners (all sin is equal). God made a way for us to be able to enter heaven (aqccepting Christ as Lord and Savior) and it has nothing to do with works because let's face it, no one is good enough to get into heaven. Id hate to go thru life scared wondering if I was bad enough that day to keep me out of heaven, never knowing if where I would end up. Luckily we have such a loving God he doesn't make us earn our way (cuz we'd fail). I have accepted His gift and I have never worried about my eternal security!

Doesnt really answer the question.

 

[armchair]

I don't know what is stranger - the notion that an ordained Christian minister who went through seminary and has spent years studying all manner of religious texts comes on a sports forum asking to have rather trite questions about simple aspects of faith answered for him...or the notion that an INTERNET MESSAGEBOARD is the best venue to have deep meaningful discussions with a minimum of misunderstandings and personal attacks.



I look at it like this: I don't drink soda. Never liked the stuff. Got no use for it.

When I see billboards for it or ads on TV, in magazines, online, etc. as part of my every day routine, do I take offense? No, I just ignore them.

When every place I go has a soda vending machine, do I take it as a personal affront? A judgement on my dietary preferences? No. I'm not silly or super-sensitive.

Do I write letters to television networks asking them to ban all mention of soda? Do I think characters on tv shows should not be shown using soda, because it might offend me, even though a huge number of people use soda every day? Of course not. That would be absurd.

Do I seek out people who are enjoying soda in cafeterias and restaurants and pester them about why they like soda? Do I ask that they justify their enjoyment of soda to me? Or do I say to them "Why on earth are you morons drinking soda? Don't you fools realize that science almighty has not shown it to have any nutritional value! People can get diabetes from soda! How dare you enjoy it!"

No. It would be ridiculous for me to insert myself into something they enjoy and demand that they deal with my issues. And, so far, 2 of the top 3 posters in this thread (clearly stated in the title to be about faith) are non-believers who are criticizing and/or complaining about those who have faith or practice a religion. Makes one wonder exactly who is trying to force their beliefs on whom.

Christians are not soda machines: They are walking, talking people, many of whom quite obviously like to push their myths on other people. This is why Tebow made a fool of himself putting bible verse in his eye black--that is proselytizing. Christians love to proselytize, I guess because they know they are way out on a limb that is not made of logic. This is what missionaries have been doing for hundreds of years, what Mormons do. This is what the original poster here did--said he wasn't pushing religion but by the act of posting the link, he was. I don't care, but if he's going to push, however subtly, I can respond. Saying prayers in public places, 10 commandments, all of that silliness, is proselytizing.

What is most outrageous and absurd about religion and all this "god" stuff is that it has NO basis in fact--no logic. You are telling people in effect that you believe in a green elephant in the living room--and then many people in society and institutions think it is perfectly WONDERFUL and appropriate to promote the green elephant (or the white beaded old man, if that suits you or whatever) in the living room--and YET, and YET, people who look in the living room and say, "Wow, I hear a lot about this green elephant, but I'm looking and I don't see it." And guess who is thought odd and suspect--the people who don't see the green elephant that quite obviously ISN'T in the living room and quite obviously doesn't exist. Totally absurd. We have to listen to idiots like Pat Robertson tell us that earthquakes are caused by gays. And America is supposed to be a sophisticated society! We're the opposite.

What is also outrageous are Christians who want to cast doubt--in schools!--on evolution and other scientific realities because they put the lie to some of the silly stories in the bible. Creationism is myth; science is fact--and yet Christians try to link the two and pretend that they are the same. They are NOT. I can't wait for an atheist to run for president. America's many religious people will gasp and vote for the other candidate, but eventually our society may mature and we who have logic and reason on our side won't have to be oppressed by this...silliness.

I don't dislike religion or people who believe. But it should be kept in the church. If people want to believe in comforting myths, wonderful--but I can't accept pushing myths on others and the public at large.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Christians are not soda machines: They are walking, talking people, many of whom quite obviously like to push their myths on other people. This is why Tebow made a fool of himself putting bible verse in his eye black--that is proselytizing. Christians love to proselytize, I guess because they know they are way out on a limb that is not made of logic. This is what missionaries have been doing for hundreds of years, what Mormons do. This is what the original poster here did--said he wasn't pushing religion but by the act of posting the link, he was. I don't care, but if he's going to push, however subtly, I can respond. Saying prayers in public places, 10 commandments, all of that silliness, is proselytizing.

What is most outrageous and absurd about religion and all this "god" stuff is that it has NO basis in fact--no logic. You are telling people in effect that you believe in a green elephant in the living room--and then many people in society and institutions think it is perfectly WONDERFUL and appropriate to promote the green elephant (or the white beaded old man, if that suits you or whatever) in the living room--and YET, and YET, people who look in the living room and say, "Wow, I hear a lot about this green elephant, but I'm looking and I don't see it." And guess who is thought odd and suspect--the people who don't see the green elephant that quite obviously ISN'T in the living room and quite obviously doesn't exist. Totally absurd. We have to listen to idiots like Pat Robertson tell us that earthquakes are caused by gays. And America is supposed to be a sophisticated society! We're the opposite.

What is also outrageous are Christians who want to cast doubt--in schools!--on evolution and other scientific realities because they put the lie to some of the silly stories in the bible. Creationism is myth; science is fact--and yet Christians try to link the two and pretend that they are the same. They are NOT. I can't wait for an atheist to run for president. America's many religious people will gasp and vote for the other candidate, but eventually our society may mature and we who have logic and reason on our side won't have to be oppressed by this...silliness.

I don't dislike religion or people who believe. But it should be kept in the church. If people want to believe in comforting myths, wonderful--but I can't accept pushing myths on others and the public at large.

It's interesting to me how some people like to evangelize when they stumble upon something that betters their lives. When someone adopts a healthier lifestyle and loses a ton of weight or converts to vegetarianism they go on and on about it and want to suddenly convince the masses that their way is the right way! If a person obtains financial success they suddenly think they have the "Midas Touch" and can teach anyone how to do it as well. Christianity is no different.

 

[Remy]

But in this case, no one truly knows. Christians believe and that is the essence of faith. Both Christians & atheists definitively believe in something that cannot currently be proven (existence vs nonexistence of a creator) and many people today find themselves outside of that paradigm - undecided.

Whether you believe one way or another arguably has little to no influence over how we live day in & out. Most people are worldly and just don't really think about it.

This OP has captured the crux of religion. All religions are belief systems, none are proven. Faith is belief without proof. Atheists can no more prove their position (yes negatives can be proven for example -2 + -2 = -4) than can Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Wiccans to name a few can prove theirs. I accept people believing as they do for whatever reasons they've reconciled for themselves their faith. That said because you believe it and the reasons you believe may not be solid enough for me to believe and place my faith as you do. So my ask is everyone respect each other's beliefs whatever they are with the full knowledge you cannot prove yours any more than he can prove his. The truth of the matter is and it is a hard say for some, your religion is mostly determined by where you are born and raised. If the US, likely Christian, Italy for example likely Christian, Tel Aviv likely Judaism, Riyadh likely Muslim, Bangkok likely Buddhist, large swaths of Africa likely pagan, on and on it goes ....each has very sound reasons why they follow the faith they do ... in modernity many of us are reduced to arguing about faith much as we do about which laundry detergent makes our clothes cleaner .. its anedoctal, subjective, and rather pointless to the confirmed believer ... just sayin'

 

[WoodsmanVol]

There are zealots in every religion that will die for a cause. Martyrdom is not exclusive to Christianity. Muslim terrorists blow themselves up in the name of Allah all the time. Too many Christians practice their faith in a vacuum and don't realize there's really nothing THAT unique about their own faith. Did you know that there are at least 10 known Messianic-like figures in history that actually pre-date Jesus? Did you know that the Church did not officially recognize Jesus as being God until it was VOTED on in 325 AD by Constantine and his council?

Here's the thing, Brave Volunteer. My post was a post stating a general agreement with Armchair's comments. Then I proceeded explain why I, me, myself remain a believer. At no time did I try to convince him or anyone to flip to my belief. Just said what had happened with I, me, myself. Didn't even even suggest he take it into consideration. Kind of like saying I once parked at a Vons grocery, opened the car door and there was a money clip with $300 in it. Which actually did happen. But I haven't suggested anyone go park at Vons, see?

Now about the other stuff, yeah I know about messianic figures pre- and post Jesus. So what?
Martyrdom, and all that, so what?. For me, I, and myself, the teacher's statement was a moment of removing doubts I, me, myself had as a college student. The realization that these terrified, cowering men suddenly found a motivation to fear death no more and come out proclaiming their Savior hit home to me. If it didn't hit home to my classmates, family members, friends, or anyone on VN, well, we're individuals who respond in different ways to different things. That part of my post was to share with a specific poster why I continued to believe. What that instructor's words meant to me at the time and still do today. Beyond that, I had no other purpose and if that upsets you, just discard it because I certainly won't argue with you about it. That would be contrary to the post's intent.
["With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another." --Georg C. Licthtenberg]

 

[GVF]

You're selling something the non believer doesn't want to buy, and you're using fear of the unknown to spread it.

Here's a better question; IF (huge hypothetical if) upon death non-believers weren't sentenced to hell and eternal damnation, but instead just went somewhere else not as perfect as heaven but not one full of torment - how many people would bother with Christianity? This is honestly, in my opinion, the reason why it rubs some people and will always rub some people the wrong way. They're being told if they don't do something, they will suffer eternal wrath.

When I say you I of course do not mean you personally. :hi: My very best friend is devoutly atheist and we've had many detailed discussions on these topics. I tend to play advocate for either side from time to time simply for objectivity.

Beleivers and non-believers alike have been choosing sides long before His own people even hung him on the cross. It's the way of salvation and the path to eternity. The way God intended. It's the way humans go about it that can sometimes make it off-putting. not everyone will choose to receive. Just how it is.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Christians are not soda machines: They are walking, talking people, many of whom quite obviously like to push their myths on other people. This is why Tebow made a fool of himself putting bible verse in his eye black--that is proselytizing. Christians love to proselytize, I guess because they know they are way out on a limb that is not made of logic. This is what missionaries have been doing for hundreds of years, what Mormons do. This is what the original poster here did--said he wasn't pushing religion but by the act of posting the link, he was. I don't care, but if he's going to push, however subtly, I can respond. Saying prayers in public places, 10 commandments, all of that silliness, is proselytizing.

What is most outrageous and absurd about religion and all this "god" stuff is that it has NO basis in fact--no logic. You are telling people in effect that you believe in a green elephant in the living room--and then many people in society and institutions think it is perfectly WONDERFUL and appropriate to promote the green elephant (or the white beaded old man, if that suits you or whatever) in the living room--and YET, and YET, people who look in the living room and say, "Wow, I hear a lot about this green elephant, but I'm looking and I don't see it." And guess who is thought odd and suspect--the people who don't see the green elephant that quite obviously ISN'T in the living room and quite obviously doesn't exist. Totally absurd. We have to listen to idiots like Pat Robertson tell us that earthquakes are caused by gays. And America is supposed to be a sophisticated society! We're the opposite.

What is also outrageous are Christians who want to cast doubt--in schools!--on evolution and other scientific realities because they put the lie to some of the silly stories in the bible. Creationism is myth; science is fact--and yet Christians try to link the two and pretend that they are the same. They are NOT. I can't wait for an atheist to run for president. America's many religious people will gasp and vote for the other candidate, but eventually our society may mature and we who have logic and reason on our side won't have to be oppressed by this...silliness.

I don't dislike religion or people who believe. But it should be kept in the church. If people want to believe in comforting myths, wonderful--but I can't accept pushing myths on others and the public at large.

Your Honor... I'd like to submit the above as Exhibit #2 please.

To the poster... I have doubts that you "don't dislike religion" given the sentiment posted, and I certainly have issues with this part of your post...

This is what the original poster here did--said he wasn't pushing religion but by the act of posting the link, he was. I don't care, but if he's going to push, however subtly, I can respond. Saying prayers in public places, 10 commandments, all of that silliness, is proselytizing.

You may want to look up the definition of the word "proselytizing". The OP makes a thread about a beloved VFL on a UT message board and you consider that proselytizing? Not to mention, the primary point of the OP was that Peyton doesn't speak out about his faith but would rather it show through his actions... which the OP said this is what he admired about Peyton. And you consider this proselytizing?

It's seems clear that if you sneezed and someone said "bless you" that you would also consider this proselytizing.