Peyton Manning's faith

[WoodsmanVol]

This OP has captured the crux of religion. All religions are belief systems, none are proven. Faith is belief without proof. Atheists can no more prove their position (yes negatives can be proven for example -2 + -2 = -4) than can Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Wiccans to name a few can prove theirs. I accept people believing as they do for whatever reasons they've reconciled for themselves their faith. That said because you believe it and the reasons you believe may not be solid enough for me to believe and place my faith as you do. So my ask is everyone respect each other's beliefs whatever they are with the full knowledge you cannot prove yours any more than he can prove his. The truth of the matter is and it is a hard say for some, your religion is mostly determined by where you are born and raised. If the US, likely Christian, Italy for example likely Christian, Tel Aviv likely Judaism, Riyadh likely Muslim, Bangkok likely Buddhist, large swaths of Africa likely pagan, on and on it goes ....each has very sound reasons why they follow the faith they do ... in modernity many of us are reduced to arguing about faith much as we do about which laundry detergent makes our clothes cleaner .. its anedoctal, subjective, and rather pointless to the confirmed believer ... just sayin'

Some more tidbits. Remy, I'm often condemned because I will actually listen to "different perceptions" without getting all "righteously indignant." Basically, because i don't believe God either made or want us to be stupid automatons. Thus I can say, I understand and can even accept the logic you espouse above. Now, for a believer to say that seems contradictory and that's why I often get condemned. But if those condemning would read their Bible segments in whole and not in bits and pieces they might less robotized in their beliefs. I say segments because contrary to many misunderstanding, the Bible isn't a single book but a collection of works by various authors who wrote at various eras the Bible covers. So you have to read within those parameters as well as the culture and historical and socio-politico-religious realities of the time.

It's my belief that the Bible has portions that actually challenge people to do scientific exploration in seeking the evidence of God. This at a time of ignorance about science.

1. In Job, the the challenge to study biology and geology. job 12:7-10 We're only now via genetics finding out how intricate the design of life is. And via new technologies incredible tectonic and climate systems of Earth that makes it so unique among Sol's family as a life sustaining world.

2. In job chapter 38:14 through chapter 39, you will find various challenges to study meteorology, astronomy, physics, oceanology, biology, and geology.

3. Isiah 40:22 claims the world is round at a time when common thought was contrary to this concept.
40:26 challenges people to do what we're doing today with greater and greater advances in technology. That is to truly study the stars and realize the power in them that testifies of their creator. More and more scientists are admitting that the universe if too structured to be some random incident.

In short, God doesn't want people to be nitwits who blindly accept His existence. He actually wants us to find Him in His creations. Challenges us to do so. But for those who demand that science be the enemy their belief are actually disobeying the mandate of the very God they claim to believe in. Or perhaps fearful of what they may find.

 

[n_huffhines]

sure you can say it's a little bit of 1 and 2...that way it fits YOUR needs and you will be able to do what you want and not feel guilty...

I know...I did it for the last 4 yrs...that is not what the Bible teaches...we don't mold Christ's ways to our needs...we are to be molded to his...I am probably the biggest sinner in here (I weigh 315 ) esp last 4 yrs since I have been backslid out of Church and God's ways. I just started going back and the conviction of my sinful ways have been heavy on my heart bc of the way I acted around people in person and on here. I ask everyone here, who reads this, to please forgive me of my sinful ways, the cursing, the belittling and name calling and just the selfish way I have acted. I hope to truly become a better Christian and have my acts speak louder than my words. But, I first had to admit I was wrong and that is the biggest step. I am truly sorry for my actions and once again ask for y'alls forgiveness.

Actually, calling it #3 would most closely fit my needs.

The idea that you can commit sin and simply accept Jesus and get to heaven fits a lot of people's needs. It's much harder to vigilantly be a good person.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Here's the thing, Brave Volunteer. My post was a post stating a general agreement with Armchair's comments. Then I proceeded explain why I, me, myself remain a believer. At no time did I try to convince him or anyone to flip to my belief. Just said what had happened with I, me, myself. Didn't even even suggest he take it into consideration. Kind of like saying I once parked at a Vons grocery, opened the car door and there was a money clip with $300 in it. Which actually did happen. But I haven't suggested anyone go park at Vons, see?

Now about the other stuff, yeah I know about messianic figures pre- and post Jesus. So what?
Martyrdom, and all that, so what?. For me, I, and myself, the teacher's statement was a moment of removing doubts I, me, myself had as a college student. The realization that these terrified, cowering men suddenly found a motivation to fear death no more and come out proclaiming their Savior hit home to me. If it didn't hit home to my classmates, family members, friends, or anyone on VN, well, we're individuals who respond in different ways to different things. That part of my post was to share with a specific poster why I continued to believe. What that instructor's words meant to me at the time and still do today. Beyond that, I had no other purpose and if that upsets you, just discard it because I certainly won't argue with you about it. That would be contrary to the post's intent.
["With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another." --Georg C. Licthtenberg]

The thing is WoodsmanVol, contrary to what you may think, I am not an atheist. The truth is I don't think you can really label what I am and I wouldn't want anyone to because my opinions/beliefs have evolved and changed so much over the years.

In my 42 years on this Earth, when it comes to spirituality/faith/religion I have come to believe in one certainty. And that certainty is that ALL faiths regardless of what they are should constantly and perpetually be questioned....and questioned...and questioned again! In fact, if I were building a worship center the only religious symbol I would have hanging is a great big question mark! We should constantly analyze and re-evaluate our belief systems. The notion that we should never question who or what "God" is and how that relates to our own beliefs is absurd IMO.

 

[n_huffhines]

I don't know what is stranger - the notion that an ordained Christian minister who went through seminary and has spent years studying all manner of religious texts comes on a sports forum asking to have rather trite questions about simple aspects of faith answered for him...or the notion that an INTERNET MESSAGEBOARD is the best venue to have deep meaningful discussions with a minimum of misunderstandings and personal attacks.

Hmmm...there are thousands of different interpretations of scripture. I don't think it's strange at all that I find them interesting. I'm interested to know how people reason through their faith. I am not an atheist nor am I a believer. Faith doesn't really work for me, but I don't think it's stupid. I think certain forms of faith are completely inconsistent and unreasoned. Others are reasonable. People that haven't reasoned through their faith don't like the kinds of questions I ask. My best friend is the best Christian I know and we have great discussions where he doesn't get offended and I completely respect his position. That's a rarity. He's pretty much the only person I can talk to without them getting defensive.

 

[WarMachine]

Whew. Hey guys. First post ever on Vol Nation. This is a great place for Vol news!

I've spent a lot of time studying the Bible. I'm not really crazy about heated arguments, but I'd love to present another take on the case for Christianity. Here's how I see it:

YHWH, God of the Hebrews, created everything. He knows everything, and planned everything in history for purposes we don't fully know and understand. He made humans for the purpose of representing him on the earth and for having a relationship with himself (Adam and Eve, managers of Eden, hanging out with God). Everything is perfect.

Adam and Eve decide, partly due to sinister influence, to disobey God. They were confused and deceived, but still responsible. So God curses them (frustration in work, pain in birth, etc.), and kicks them out of Eden.

But God still loves them and promises that one day Eve's offspring will make everything right. God sacrifices animals and makes clothing for them as a temporary restraint on his right anger for their disobedience.

Lots of time passes, people sin, God judges their sin but still shows that he loves some because he chooses to (Noah and family, Abraham, Job, etc.). No one deserves for God to be kind to them because Adam screwed up and every one of his offspring choose rebellion too. But God still decides to rescue some from their rebellion.

God chooses to show his power and glory by choosing to be kind to a people called the Hebrews or Israelites, and, despite their griping and moaning, he rescues them from Egypt and leads them to the promised land. There, rebellion continues to infect everything, but prophets predict (Isaiah, 700 years before Jesus) that that promised one from Genesis 3 would come to make everything right. God will take out his anger and wrath on Jesus instead of on animals; this is the sacrifice that will make animal sacrifice obsolete.

Jesus is born (from a virgin, thus he's not infected by Adam's rebellion) and lives a life without sinning (good kid ). He attacks the people who love the Jewish religion more than they love God, and thus gets himself in trouble with the law on purpose, without sinning. He teaches that loving God and loving others is the most important commandment. He is executed for not denying that he was the Messiah (promised one from Genesis). God decides that anyone who trusts in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross will be forgiven of their rebellion. And because Jesus didn't sin, he should not have died, and he raised him from the dead.

Jesus's followers, a small group of societal misfits and outcasts, don't run and hide, but they change the world because they truly believe that Jesus died and rose again. They present the "good news" that we don't have to be punished for our rebellion, but that God will forgive us because of our faith in Jesus.

Sooooooo... this is the message of the gospel. It sounds crazy. But there are so many reasons we SHOULD believe it is true. However, God also wrote this story so it would be easy to not believe. I don't know all the answers, but I am choosing to believe that Jesus will forgive my rebellious heart and give me all the things he promises to give an undeserving rebel.

The God of the Bible wants us to wrestle with logic and use our minds, but he didn't make it easy on purpose.

Hope we can continue the conversation with class, like Peyton Manning!

- Todd

 

[Easttnken]

There are Christians in my own family that have told me that looking for facts equals questioning God which equals going to hell.

Seeking facts and questioning God can actually be a good thing for the non believer. This is when God can reveal himself, and provide answers one may be looking for...thus, the "ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find" portion of the Bible.

Seeking or questioning doesn't equal going to hell. Instead, for many this is the first step to allowing God to make his plan real to them.

Note: not trying to elicit a response, as I saw your' not going to post again' statement. I just wanted to add this, and to say I generally appreciate your honesty and ability to be objective.

Have a Great Day...Go Vols!!!

 

[WoodsmanVol]

The thing is WoodsmanVol, contrary to what you may think, I am not an atheist. The truth is I don't think you can really label what I am and I wouldn't want anyone to because my opinions/beliefs have evolved and changed so much over the years.

In my 42 years on this Earth, when it comes to spirituality/faith/religion I have come to believe in one certainty. And that certainty is that ALL faiths regardless of what they are should constantly and perpetually be questioned....and questioned...and questioned again! In fact, if I were building a worship center the only religious symbol I would have hanging is a great big question mark! We should constantly analyze and re-evaluate our belief systems. The notion that we should never question who or what "God" is and how that relates to our own beliefs is absurd IMO.

Just a single question. Why do you think that I think you're an atheist??????????????? I don't even know you or your set of beliefs and I certainly didn't refer to you as an atheist so where did you drag that thought from???????????????????
Unless someone hijacked my post and changed the wording, I am at a complete lost to what you're talking about.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Still waiting on an answer to how old the earth is...

Can't wait until someone says 6000 years old so science can destroy them...

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Just a single question. Why do you think that I think you're an atheist??????????????? I don't even know you or your set of beliefs and I certainly didn't refer to you as an atheist so where did you drag that thought from???????????????????
Unless someone hijacked my post and changed the wording, I am at a complete lost to what you're talking about.

I said contrary to what you MAY think. As in, "just in case you think I am." That's all.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

I said contrary to what you MAY think. As in, "just in case you think I am." That's all.

Dancing on the point of a needle, I see. OK, Brave, I assume we're done. :hi:

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Still waiting on an answer to how old the earth is...

Can't wait until someone says 6000 years old so science can destroy them...

You mean like when some scientists thought the world was flat even though the bible described it as round?

And btw... I think k you may be waiting a while.

 

[Berry4Heisman14]

Still waiting on an answer to how old the earth is...

Can't wait until someone says 6000 years old so science can destroy them...

I'm atheist and I haven't talked to many Christians who really think earth is only 6000 years old. I think most of us have moved past that.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Still waiting on an answer to how old the earth is...

Can't wait until someone says 6000 years old so science can destroy them...

1. I'm a believer and will say point blank, you won't get that 6K-8K age of the Earth mythical statement from me.

2. Clearly, you're fishing for someone to beat down.
A pity actually, as it puts you on the level of those you wish to beat down. Just saying.

But let me play a little. I never did buy that 6K-8K timeline, even as a newbie. Not sure how it started but I always had the belief that when it came to creation, the Bible told "what" God did. It didn't tell "how' or "when." When I saw what I believed to be pseudo math (1day = 1K years) and realized it was a figurative statement meant for the audience of that time, I was done with it. This comes back to what I said in another post, westerners tend to read the Bible in bits and pieces instead of a whole. Meaning whatever book or work is being studied, what it says is within that work's parameters. Example, if it's Exodus, that's what you study. If it's some letter Paul wrote, that's what you study. In other words you're reading within its intended context. Providing you can override your church affiliation indoctrination.
Otherwise you will fall prey to the patchwork pre-conceptualizations that verse jumping, mixing, concept cooking that lead to beliefs that indeed have no basis in fact or even the actual message of the verse itself. So I concluded long ago the Earth is far older than 6K-8k years. The Bible doesn't say otherwise.

Amazingly, those who won't budge on the pseudo years miss out on the unfolding revelation of today's wonderful scientific discoveries. Example, Genesis says God said let there be be light. There's your big bang and even the doubter Stephen Hawkings says the universe came from nothing. Which is what the Bible also claims. Ok He divides the waters and cause dry land to appear. There's your plate tectonics. And so on.

As our robotic probes venture ever further from Earth, the wonders they reveal is literally verifying so much of what the Bible says. But when you shut your mind behind the door preconceived dogma, you can't see the testimony of nature proclaiming God or much else.

 

[GiveHimSIX!!!]

This thread is not about Peyton's faith anymore it's everyone's opinion on religion.

Sadly this thread was a good post by the OP but little out of hand may need to be moved. BECAUSE WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT HIM AND HIS FAITH!!!

Let the bashing on me begin but make sure you read my 2 cents before you do.

 

[Jxn Vol]

If this world was not divinely created by God, but just started with a Big Bang of carbon, I have 1 question. Who made the carbon?

 

[WoodsmanVol]

This thread is not about Peyton's faith anymore it's everyone's opinion on religion.

Sadly this thread was a good post by the OP but little out of hand may need to be moved. BECAUSE WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT HIM AND HIS FAITH!!!

Let the bashing on me begin but make sure you read my 2 cents before you do.

It's VN, man, since when have we ever road the railway all the way to the destination the ticket claimed?

 

[WoodsmanVol]

If this world was not divinely created by God, but just started with a Big Bang of carbon, I have 1 question. Who made the carbon?

Big bang of carbon???????????????? Before the big bang, there was nothing. Certainly not carbon because that would mean something called matter preexisted the big bang.

 

[MikeVol44]

Still waiting on an answer to how old the earth is...

Can't wait until someone says 6000 years old so science can destroy them...

Definitely no more than 6 - 8,000 years old! And, if you think that "alleged" geological strata serve proof that the earth's crust is the result of long ages--or that any method we humans use to determine age (such as Carbon-14, or Pb/Ur ratio)--you're misguided.

If you want some modern day proof of that--just go and study the aftermath of Mount St. Helens--where you have the formation of strata that Geologists used to claim could only form over millions of year forming in less than 30 days!

Evolutionary "science" is a joke--and is the GREATEST LIE ever imposed on the human race! From Nebraska man to the Piltdown man to the Biology textbooks I studied at UTC where a "scientist" lied about and altered the pictures of a chick embryo's similarities with a human embryo--the history of evolutionary "theory" is laughable!

And, my friend, one of the first rules of science is that an event must be reproducible to be confirmed as valid. Nothing in evolutionary "theory" has ever been able to be reproduced--NOTHING! In fact, the aforementioned events of Mt. St. Helens actually disproves the "scientific theory" of long geological ages.

Also--take a little trip down to Lumpkin, GA to examine Providence Canyon State Park to have your theory of geological ages proven in the Grand Canyon blown completely to "smithereenies..."

Evolution's scientific "validation" is a history of lies and intentional scams. In fact, Evolution is a more like a religion that takes more faith to believe than the Bible.

And remember--Science is nothing more than the power to observe our world and draw conclusions from our observations. Humans have a LONG-standing history of being WRONG when we depend on our ability to observe.

A couple of "simple-minded" points for you to think about:

1) The Law of Entropy (the Universe is a closed system, according to scientists at MIT) governs our planet--and you especially enjoy its applications this time of year and in the summer because your heat pump operates on this Law.

It simply states that energy doesn't run "uphill" any more than water or sewage will run against gravitational pull without an external force acting upon it. Chemically stated--the energy of the products for any chemical reaction must occupy a LOWER energy state than the energy of the reactants--or the reaction will NEVER happen unless a catalyst or outside energy is infused to make it happen (calculated delta G must be negative for any reaction to be "spontaneous." Spontaneous DOES NOT EQUAL instantaneous).

Therefore, the energy of ANY system cannot go from a lower state to a more complex and higher energy state! Now, chew on that scientifically for a while. And,

2) The 1st Law of Thermodynamics that states that matter (and therefore energy) may neither be created or destroyed.

In fact, Einstein won a Nobel prize for coming up with the relationship of E = mc (squared) where E= energy; m = mass; and c = the speed of light.

Einstein therefore said that the Energy of any object is more directly related to the speed of light than the mass of the object--and that equation is the basis for Nuclear Science.

The Bible does in fact, in Genesis 1:3-4, state that God created Light on the first day!

Isaiah 40:22 states that the earth is shaped like a circle--just how did the prophet know that (he wrote somewhere around 700-600 B.C.)--he didn't have a telescope and the ability to observe the planet from space...

Read Job 38--and pray tell, please attempt to scientifically explain the pleiades--the star cluster that is closer together than it should be after all the "alleged" evolutionary years of the earth's existence.

Please don't read any hostility in my writings here, but as someone who has degrees in both Chemistry and Pharmacy--I simply cannot be silent when anyone attempts to use science in an attempt to prove the age of the earth!

Now, go ahead and make your case--but you still have to examine and explain the aforementioned data I have given you. eace2:

 

[utvolpj]

If this world was not divinely created by God, but just started with a Big Bang of carbon, I have 1 question. Who made the carbon?

God suffers from every first cause argument that the universe does. The only way theists get around this is by simply declaring him immune from it.

 

[Jxn Vol]

Big bang of carbon???????????????? Before the big bang, there was nothing. Certainly not carbon because that would mean something called matter preexisted the big bang.

Ok. Who created the nothing?

 

[IN Jed]

God suffers from every first cause argument that the universe does. The only way theists get around this is by simply declaring him immune from it.

the beginning of the universe only describes natural existence. By definition, anything pre-existing the universe or causal agents must exist outside of the time and space continuum and therefore cannot be described by the laws of nature as we observe them. The universe began, so something supernatural had to exist before hand. Who or what that is, is up for discussion.

 

[volprof]

Because according to the Bible their are no "good people". All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If "good people" can get to heaven then why did Jesus have to die? Also we have copied manuscripts of the New Testament that date back to 100 or so years after the life of Jesus, which is incredible for an ancient text. Everyone believes Plato and his teachings without question but the copied manuscripts we have of his works are dated about 1,000 or more years from when he lived. The point is the sooner the documentation from when it happened the more accurate it would probably be. We also have the Dead Sea Scrolls that prove the ancient text was meticulously copied and authenticated to assure accuracy. The Bible also predicted the future which no other spiritual book can claim.

I'm not attacking you, but just out of curiosity, where did you learn about the Bible, its transcription, and Plato? I hope it wasn't in any "secular" school.

 

[volprof]

You mean like when some scientists thought the world was flat even though the bible described it as round?

And btw... I think k you may be waiting a while.

And where did you learn about the Bible as well? Admittedly it states "the circle of earth" in the NKJV. That sounds amazing until you learn that the NKJV was transcribed in the 1970s. If medieval and Renaissance scientists thought for a second that their versions of the Bible said that the Earth was round, you better bet that's what their science would have confirmed as well. The Church was nothing to be played with back in those days. Read about Copernicus and Gallileo.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

MikeVol44-

You made several very interesting points I had not really considered before as a christian.

However, I don't interpret the Genesis account of creation as 6 literal 24 hour days that occurred some 6,000-8,000 years ago...

Scientist may or may not be correct but even if the universe is billions of years old I see no conflict with the bible.

 

[volprof]

God suffers from every first cause argument that the universe does. The only way theists get around this is by simply declaring him immune from it.

Even God is tired of first cause arguments.