Police shooting black man in the back ... again (Kenosha, WI)

[KB5252]

Again what does their training say? To me it seems like a huge breach of everything to allow someone to go for a weapon in that situation.

We are already talking about the cops shooting the guy, tackling him and causing a concussion is a whole lot lower of an issue. And believe me I am not belittling what a concussion can do to a person.

To me it seems jacked up that the cops can get away with messing up for however much of the situation, but as soon as the civilian messes up lethal force is applicable and good bye rights of the citizen.

Make them not cops. Think of it as just a shooting between civilians and it's clear who is in the wrong. Not sure why one side being cops 100% clears them. That's way too much jackboot appeasement for me to like it.

Again not sure why cops are defended if they allowed the situation to get to the worse possible outcome. If the public is supposed to trust them they have to be the professionals in the matter. This did not strike me as professional behavior. Tackling/handcuffing/knee in the back would have been.

You can't make them not cops it they enforce the law. Simply detaining someone then becomes kidnapping. They cannot operate in that manner.

And to your last comment if he had a knife tackling him would have been the absolute worst possible move to make safety wise. The problem as I see it from the second angle, new footage is an even more complicated situation than I thought with the first angle. You had civilians rushing up on the cops and scuffle with children in tow.

So easy to pick these things apart in hindsight with the ability to rewatch and process the situation from an area of complete safety with no stressors.

 

[VolStrom]

So you believe "your side" is above any all reproach and cant get any better?

Its constructive criticism. If you cant handle it, you or the cops, you arent fit for the job. Pretty much any job. Yet alone one that puts the power of life and death in your hands.

You're the one that can't handle it. Whaaaaa.

 

[LouderVol]

I consider myself a libertarian and have often been critical of policing.

That said, I dont have much sympathy for someone choosing to completely disregard commands. You can hate the commands, disagree with them, etc. But that isnt the time to turnaround and make your hands disappear.

And I agree. I have said a number of times the shooting was justified. I just think the cops have some responsibility to make sure it doesnt get to that point.

People and cops largely believe the cops are there to serve and protect the community. It's hard for me to think they are doing that if they dont take reasonable steps to avoid shooting someone. They will still have to shoot people, but I think some of the onus is on them to be peace officers.

 

[rjd970]

Those are stories because the purported racist angle gets attention. Not a one you mention has any verifiable racist underpinnings, but they are 100% portrayed as racial acts.

Where is the media coverage of some white guy killed by police? Are you claiming that doesnt happen? I know you're not claiming that. It happens, but the story cant be manipulated, so it doesnt carry weight.

Hold up. You are moving goal posts. This started out because you claimed if they didn't shoot him it would still be a story because he was getting beat:

You have cops tackle him and wrestle him to the ground and it videoed, it is getting airplay.

It becomes why are they assaulting a black man? He was just calmly walking away minding his own business.

I disagreed and said race plays a component but it shouldn't. Nevertheless, even if the guy is black, this is a story because he was shot and could (or will) die.

So fine, show me where there is other stories of cops wrestling a black man to the ground, he survives, and the story is cops assault another black man. And I'm not talking about a single story or two....I'm talking about apples to apples - the story ran on MSM outlets and is front page news just like this one.

Black or white suspect - this isn't even a story if he is just taken to the ground and arrested after an altercation.

 

[VolStrom]

So because that guy resisted, all people being detained should be shot first assuming they're going to do the same?

What if this guy decided that he wanted some crap from your house? Would you just let him in and let him go shopping? Offer up your wife or daughter? Or maybe if you had some balls, blow him away?
I'm sick of you liberals deciding that everyone is a loving soul just trying to make a life while they rape and pillage. Heaven help anyone that rapes or pillages my family.

 

[LouderVol]

You can't make them not cops it they enforce the law. Simply detaining someone then becomes kidnapping. They cannot operate in that manner.

And to your last comment if he had a knife tackling him would have been the absolute worst possible move to make safety wise. The problem as I see it from the second angle, new footage is an even more complicated situation than I thought with the first angle. You had civilians rushing up on the cops and scuffle with children in tow.

So easy to pick these things apart in hindsight with the ability to rewatch and process the situation from an area of complete safety with no stressors.

They tackled him once before. Did he get the knife off of one of them? Unless he did the level of danger they were in didnt change unless he pulled it. Which he didnt.

Something in this equation doesnt add up, and when lethal force is used there needs to be a pretty high standard to clear.

A lot of the justification is that this guy was a bad guy. But that doesnt matter. Only the actions at the time should. Could have been dad of the year going back to calm down the kids. There has been no proof of a weapon so far.

I dont like the idea that I could be put in a similiar situation and shot because I "resisted arrest" which has been pointed out is an insanely low bar in Tennessee which I grew up in and visit frequently and its justified in the eyes of the law.

 

[LouderVol]

You're the one that can't handle it. Whaaaaa.

That cops arent executioners? yeah I will cry about that.

Be sure to thank the cops when they pull a gun on you and shoot you because you shifted your weight after being handcuffed.

 

[lukeneyland]

Reaching for a weapon is not "messing up."

Do we know yet if there was a weapon?

 

[allvol123]

Hold up. You are moving goal posts. This started out because you claimed if they didn't shoot him it would still be a story because he was getting beat:



I disagreed and said race plays a component but it shouldn't. Nevertheless, even if the guy is black, this is a story because he was shot and could (or will) die.

So fine, show me where there is other stories of cops wrestling a black man to the ground, he survives, and the story is cops assault another black man. And I'm not talking about a single story or two....I'm talking about apples to apples - the story ran on MSM outlets and is front page news just like this one.

Black or white suspect - this isn't even a story if he is just taken to the ground and arrested after an altercation.

It is only a story if he is a black guy.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[KB5252]

They tackled him once before. Did he get the knife off of one of them? Unless he did the level of danger they were in didnt change unless he pulled it. Which he didnt.

Something in this equation doesnt add up, and when lethal force is used there needs to be a pretty high standard to clear.

A lot of the justification is that this guy was a bad guy. But that doesnt matter. Only the actions at the time should. Could have been dad of the year going back to calm down the kids. There has been no proof of a weapon so far.

I dont like the idea that I could be put in a similiar situation and shot because I "resisted arrest" which has been pointed out is an insanely low bar in Tennessee which I grew up in and visit frequently and its justified in the eyes of the law.

If he's turned his back the officers have no idea what if any weapon he might have, that's the issue. You don't tackle someone in that situation because then your means of self defense become much less effective, possibly useless.

All they know is the guy isn't compliant, they have children running all around and a guy retreiving something from his car and willfully ignoring commands to stop. At that point would the situation not meet the criteria for force if they believe they or the people around them were in immediate danger?

Would you ignore police request to stop and fight them? If so you may be shot, anyone could at that point. But that's something I think we all know right? I don't understand why some people tempt fate.

 

[VolStrom]

That cops arent executioners? yeah I will cry about that.

Be sure to thank the cops when they pull a gun on you and shoot you because you shifted your weight after being handcuffed.

Pretty sure I wouldn't just ignore them. If you want to go right ahead. There is a reason I've never been arrested, there is a reason I've never been harrassed by the police. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[LouderVol]

If he's turned his back the officers have no idea what if any weapon he might have, that's the issue. You don't tackle someone in that situation because then your means if self defense become much less effective, possibly useless.

All they know is the guy isn't compliant, they have children running all around and a guy retaining something from his car and willfully ignoring commands to stop. At that point would the situation not meet the criteria for force if they believe they or the people around them were in immediate danger?

Works you ignore police request to stop and fight them? If so you may be shot, anyone could at that point. But that's something I think we all know right? I don't understand why some people tempt fate.

At that point.

I have said up teen times by now. The shooting was justified. The shooting was justified the shooting was mother flipping justified.

I cant believe that we as society, or common police procedure, accept that cops can sit back and do nothing until "that point". If they dont take reasonable actions, actions they had already taken, I dont see how you can say they did their job to protect anyone. Unless you are saying it's their job to shoot a guy.

And are you really saying the cops are trained not to tackle someone else from behind because of what they might be doing? To me that seems like opportunity not an increase in risk. Under that logic cops are justified shooting anyone in the back, as they "might" be presenting some sort of danger to anyone in the area. I am very uncomfortable with how much leeway cops are given there.

That's gone beyond Orwellian and into some other level of authoritarianism.

 

[Hoosier_Vol]

 

[LouderVol]

Pretty sure I wouldn't just ignore them. If you want to go right ahead. There is a reason I've never been arrested, there is a reason I've never been harrassed by the police. Stupid is as stupid does.

State of Tennessee says it doesnt matter what you have or havent done. If you "resist" you are guilty and they side with the cops.

 

[VolStrom]

State of Tennessee says it doesnt matter what you have or havent done. If you "resist" you are guilty and they side with the cops.

Like I said, I've never been arrested, I assume you have and are bitter about it?

 

[RockyTop85]

Sure sounds like you have passed over to the dark side and are supporting criminals over the police. Good luck with Biden and the "squad" with their "moderate" values.

Saving for the time somebody complains about Trumpism being compared to a cult.

 

[Credo]

I take it that you listen to Jesse Lee Peterson as well? Because those are his exact words!

Amazin!

 

[rjd970]

It is only a story if he is a black guy.

We will agree to disagree.

A black guy getting arrested after a scuffle ain't making news. One getting shot and/or killed is. Like what happened here.

I doubt either is a story if it is a white guy. It's just the PC world we live in.

 

[LouderVol]

Like I said, I've never been arrested, I assume you have and are bitter about it?

Nope. Been given some bs tickets by cops needing to make quotas before though so the idea isnt completely foreign.

I can think beyond myself and remember that in America we are supposed to be free people not owing justification to the cops for our every action.

It's your type of attitude that lead us to where we are. Instead of seeing a way to make our country, city, cops better you see it as an attack.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Not necessarily. The guy could’ve said “I’m gonna go get my gun and kill you” and attempted suicide by cop

At that point the police should have tackled him, restrained him, arrested him. Not follow him to his car, wait for him to reach inside, then open fire.

This is just another example of horrible, dumb police work.

 

[Tyler Durden]

What if this guy decided that he wanted some crap from your house? Would you just let him in and let him go shopping? Offer up your wife or daughter? Or maybe if you had some balls, blow him away?
I'm sick of you liberals deciding that everyone is a loving soul just trying to make a life while they rape and pillage. Heaven help anyone that rapes or pillages my family.

You would do jack sh*t. All you internet tough guys like to fantasize about shooting someone up for whatever reason when in fact you'd just hide in a corner and wait for some idiot cops to show up 10 minutes too late.

 

[Rickyvol77]

Architecture. I am responsible for and to the health, safety, and general welfare of the public.

I can be held criminally negligent if someone gets hurt.

You have to screw up pretty bad to get to that point but it's on the table. Plenty of lesser crimes I can be held responsible for once licensed.

I have a duty to maintain that standard. If i do everything i could have reasonably done I should be cleared. But trying once would not cover me in either civil or criminal court.

This is going to sound weird, but now imagine that every design that you make or job that you take, you have several parties (some known to you, some not) not only actively working against you doing your job, but knowingly trying to hurt your workers and the public themselves by purposefully breaking the law. It's up to you in 12 hour shifts (both day and nights 24/7) to actively find and root and fix every issue including some that contractors and zoning people call you on, and some that you just happen to find yourself.

All while the public and your customers and the media and politicians are present screaming that you aren't doing it right, even though you are following proper codes and laws. And you can be sued or fired for doing "too much" but also by not doing "enough" by people who don't understand anything about architecture, let alone your laws and health codes.

 

[KB5252]

At that point.

I have said up teen times by now. The shooting was justified. The shooting was justified the shooting was mother flipping justified.

I cant believe that we as society, or common police procedure, accept that cops can sit back and do nothing until "that point". If they dont take reasonable actions, actions they had already taken, I dont see how you can say they did their job to protect anyone. Unless you are saying it's their job to shoot a guy.

And are you really saying the cops are trained not to tackle someone else from behind because of what they might be doing? To me that seems like opportunity not an increase in risk. Under that logic cops are justified shooting anyone in the back, as they "might" be presenting some sort of danger to anyone in the area. I am very uncomfortable with how much leeway cops are given there.

That's gone beyond Orwellian and into some other level of authoritarianism.

No what I'm saying is if you can't see hands you don't just rush in blindly. You maintain distance of you believe they are going for a weapon, which by the video they obviously did.

They attempted to detain him but he fought, at that point other adults and children appear to intervene and complicate an already dangerous situation. Could they have done some things different that may have allowed a different outcome, possibly. But I could argue that would mean using more force in the outset to subdue him..... But that would be considered excessive.

I didn't catch your prior posts, apologies. Being a police officer at this time is damn near impossible. I wouldn't touch the job, mainly because I dislike people. Give me the company of animals any day of the week.

 

[Rickyvol77]

LOL, that's daf.

"We couldn't read his mind, so naturally, we shot him in the back."

Use deadly force as a first option, ask questions later. Is this the new normal?

LMAO "first option"? guess you missed the 5 other uses of force the officers did on the use of force continuum?

 

[Rickyvol77]

So because that guy resisted, all people being detained should be shot first assuming they're going to do the same?

again to slow it down, not every case is the exact same set of circumstances, thus why case law is so important