Police shooting black man in the back ... again (Kenosha, WI)

#676
#676
KB5252 said:
You can't make them not cops it they enforce the law. Simply detaining someone then becomes kidnapping. They cannot operate in that manner.

And to your last comment if he had a knife tackling him would have been the absolute worst possible move to make safety wise. The problem as I see it from the second angle, new footage is an even more complicated situation than I thought with the first angle. You had civilians rushing up on the cops and scuffle with children in tow.

So easy to pick these things apart in hindsight with the ability to rewatch and process the situation from an area of complete safety with no stressors.
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I agree that most speaking of these have never had the experience of these type calls involving domestics/crowd control issues....It would change the simple way they see it
 
#677
#677
Rickyvol77 said:
This is going to sound weird, but now imagine that every design that you make or job that you take, you have several parties (some known to you, some not) not only actively working against you doing your job, but knowingly trying to hurt your workers and the public themselves by purposefully breaking the law. It's up to you in 12 hour shifts (both day and nights 24/7) to actively find and root and fix every issue including some that contractors and zoning people call you on, and some that you just happen to find yourself.

All while the public and your customers and the media and politicians are present screaming that you aren't doing it right, even though you are following proper codes and laws. And you can be sued or fired for doing "too much" but also by not doing "enough" by people who don't understand anything about architecture, let alone your laws and health codes.
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Not foreign at all. Outside of this conversation talking to a bunch of my architecture friends you would see a bunch of nodding heads to that rundown.

I have had any number of projects that have been broken into and had stuff ripped out of the walls. And then dealt with the contractors on those jobs not wanting to replace what was stolen and just wanting to patch over the ripped out wiring. Saying it's not their fault the wiring is gone. It's not mine either, but it is my job to make sure the wiring is in there properly. Because if I let it slide I am culpable if that leads to future damage or loss of value.

Corrupt city employees. Corrupt clients. Corrupt contractors. Heck i will throw my profession in there too, corrupt architects. Just because there is some other wrong present in the system doesnt clear me of anything less than professional behavior. Again ethically i am expected to do what i reasonably can to fix that. It isnt ignored or justified away.

There is a reason I avoid public engagement if at all possible. But again just because it's difficult doesnt mean it's not part of the job.
 
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#678
#678
LouderVol said:
And I agree. I have said a number of times the shooting was justified. I just think the cops have some responsibility to make sure it doesnt get to that point.

People and cops largely believe the cops are there to serve and protect the community. It's hard for me to think they are doing that if they dont take reasonable steps to avoid shooting someone. They will still have to shoot people, but I think some of the onus is on them to be peace officers.
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I totally agree with your last statements
 
#680
#680
LouderVol said:
State of Tennessee says it doesnt matter what you have or havent done. If you "resist" you are guilty and they side with the cops.
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Here is the TCA code on Resisting, and is pretty clear.....if you run or fight the officers, you should be charged

2010 Tennessee Code
Title 39 - Criminal Offenses
Chapter 16 - Offenses Against Administration of Government
Part 6 - Obstruction of Justice
39-16-602 - Resisting stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search Prevention or obstruction of service of legal writ or process.
39-16-602. Resisting stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search Prevention or obstruction of service of legal writ or process.


(a) It is an offense for a person to intentionally prevent or obstruct anyone known to the person to be a law enforcement officer, or anyone acting in a law enforcement officer's presence and at the officer's direction, from effecting a stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search of any person, including the defendant, by using force against the law enforcement officer or another.

(b) Except as provided in § 39-11-611, it is no defense to prosecution under this section that the stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search was unlawful.

(c) It is an offense for a person to intentionally prevent or obstruct an officer of the state or any other person known to be a civil process server in serving, or attempting to serve or execute, any legal writ or process.

(d) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor unless the defendant uses a deadly weapon to resist the stop, frisk, halt, arrest, search or process server, in which event the violation is a Class A misdemeanor.



[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1991, ch. 307, § 1; 1999, ch. 178, § 1.]
 
#681
#681
KB5252 said:
No what I'm saying is if you can't see hands you don't just rush in blindly. You maintain distance of you believe they are going for a weapon, which by the video they obviously did.

They attempted to detain him but he fought, at that point other adults and children appear to intervene and complicate an already dangerous situation. Could they have done some things different that may have allowed a different outcome, possibly. But I could argue that would mean using more force in the outset to subdue him..... But that would be considered excessive.

I didn't catch your prior posts, apologies. Being a police officer at this time is damn near impossible. I wouldn't touch the job, mainly because I dislike people. Give me the company of animals any day of the week.
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I agree i am never going to be a cop.

They knew he was going for a weapon IN the car. So what do they do? Wait for him to get IN the car. I am sorry that math doesnt add up.

In any fight you dont wait for the opponent to escalate if you can reasonably control the situation prior. Which is why I keep saying the cops acted unprofessionally here.
 
#684
#684
VolStrom said:
What if this guy decided that he wanted some crap from your house? Would you just let him in and let him go shopping? Offer up your wife or daughter? Or maybe if you had some balls, blow him away?
I'm sick of you liberals deciding that everyone is a loving soul just trying to make a life while they rape and pillage. Heaven help anyone that rapes or pillages my family.
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So Jacob Blake raped one the both of the two fighting women before the cops arrived?
 
#686
#686
K-town Vol Fan said:
At that point the police should have tackled him, restrained him, arrested him. Not follow him to his car, wait for him to reach inside, then open fire.

This is just another example of horrible, dumb police work.
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Also dumb citizenry with doing something that is commonly perceived threatening.
 
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#687
#687
Rickyvol77 said:
Here is the TCA code on Resisting, and is pretty clear.....if you run or fight the officers, you should be charged

2010 Tennessee Code
Title 39 - Criminal Offenses
Chapter 16 - Offenses Against Administration of Government
Part 6 - Obstruction of Justice
39-16-602 - Resisting stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search Prevention or obstruction of service of legal writ or process.
39-16-602. Resisting stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search Prevention or obstruction of service of legal writ or process.


(a) It is an offense for a person to intentionally prevent or obstruct anyone known to the person to be a law enforcement officer, or anyone acting in a law enforcement officer's presence and at the officer's direction, from effecting a stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search of any person, including the defendant, by using force against the law enforcement officer or another.

(b) Except as provided in § 39-11-611, it is no defense to prosecution under this section that the stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search was unlawful.

(c) It is an offense for a person to intentionally prevent or obstruct an officer of the state or any other person known to be a civil process server in serving, or attempting to serve or execute, any legal writ or process.

(d) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor unless the defendant uses a deadly weapon to resist the stop, frisk, halt, arrest, search or process server, in which event the violation is a Class A misdemeanor.



[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1991, ch. 307, § 1; 1999, ch. 178, § 1.]
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Or brush their hands away, question why you are being arrested, shift your weight while in cuffs.

Those last two happened to people I know very well. I just didnt realize to what extent the law gave cops on justifying their actions post fact. I always figured it was the big blue line, not actual law.
 
#688
#688
Rickyvol77 said:
I agree that most speaking of these have never had the experience of these type calls involving domestics/crowd control issues....It would change the simple way they see it
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I haven't either. But I've worked as a bouncer briefly, a year or two, and known others all my young adult and adult life. It's not the same job I know but crowd control is crowd control and how complicated it is when friends and family get involved and knowing how to identify a possible weapon scenario and lessen the likelihood of having a weapon used against me I absolutely understand.
 
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#689
#689
Oh the outrage over someone not following orders as directed by police and getting shot while reaching in the car for who knows what. Maybe the police should’ve waited for him to do what he needed to do (get a weapon) to make it fair for both sides. You people defending that POS criminal are a ***** disgrace.

Rant over/
 
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#691
#691
LouderVol said:
I agree i am never going to be a cop.

They knew he was going for a weapon IN the car. So what do they do? Wait for him to get IN the car. I am sorry that math doesnt add up.

In any fight you dont wait for the opponent to escalate if you can reasonably control the situation prior. Which is why I keep saying the cops acted unprofessionally here.
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I'm not sure they knew what he was doing, just that he wasn't following commands. I think they thought he may try to run or produce a concealed weapon. There are a number of possibilities that they must have been evaluating. They tried to taze him, I believe I've heard that was the case anyway, so they attempted to take him with less than lethal force.

If that tazer had worked he's be in jail with a dirty pair of undershorts and a bruised ego.
 
#694
#694
PointGuard said:
So Jacob Blake raped one the both of the two fighting women before the cops arrived?
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Court records indicate Blake had been charged with third-degree sexual assault, trespassing, and disorderly conduct in connection with domestic abuse on July 6.


The shooting, which is now under investigation by the Wisconsin Department of Justice, occurred around 5 p.m. Sunday when officers responded to calls of a domestic incident. A 911 dispatcher reported that a complainant said Blake wasn't supposed to be there, and that he had taken the complainant's keys and refused to give them back.
 
#695
#695
LouderVol said:
Or brush their hands away, question why you are being arrested, shift your weight while in cuffs.

Those last two happened to people I know very well. I just didnt realize to what extent the law gave cops on justifying their actions post fact. I always figured it was the big blue line, not actual law.
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you shouldnt physically grab, push, "brush", or anything to an officer... and "shift your weight while in cuffs" sounds vague or excuse-worthy.

I have never seen someone arrested for "questioning why you are being arrested" unless it was something like during a pat-down, turning around and swinging arms or screaming and yelling and cussing in a disorderly manner.
 
#697
#697
KB5252 said:
I'm not sure they knew what he was doing, just that he wasn't following commands. I think they thought he may try to run or office a concealed weapon. There are a number of possibilities that they must have been evaluating. They tried to taze him, I believe I've heard that was the case anyway, so they attempted to take him with less than lethal force.
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And they had previously tackled him. Again there is a gap of a couple seconds, not one where it's a snap decision, where the cops arent doing a whole lot of anything. And that is what I maintain is the issue as I see it.

If I am a non cop in that situation I am tackling him. End the threat sooner and before he can escalate. Sure things could still go bad but I stand a much better chance to protect myself and others by taking action.

If their training says that was the right thing to do, then I see no fault with the cops. But again I cant imagine threat assessment says wait for individual to get into the car and escalates with a weapon before you do anything else.

To use a clumsy football metaphor it's like if your team fumbles the ball, recovers and gets the first down. End result is fine, but you still got to make sure you dont fumble the ball.

In this scenario I think the cops fumbled.
 
#698
#698
K-town Vol Fan said:
They didn't try hard enough. If 3 cops can't subdue 1 man they are horrible at their jobs.
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In my mid twenties you could have picked two friends and i would guarantee you couldn't subdue me with anything less than what's considered excessive force. If I wanted to get away from you I could have. It happens, take your hindsight cape off superhero.
 
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#699
#699
He had waved a gun at a whole bar full of people recently. The man, and I use that term reluctantly, is dangerous. He fought them and refused to obey orders to stand down. Most likely verbally threatened them as he was fighting them. They absolutely had the right to expect that he was reaching in his car to get something to kill them with.
 
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#700
#700
KB5252 said:
In my mid twenties you could have picked two friends and i would guarantee you couldn't subdue me with anything less than what's considered excessive force. If I wanted to get away from you I could have. It happens, take your hindsight cape off superhero.
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and that's not even factoring in things like drugs, alcohol, mental illness, other combative people fighting with him, etc.
 
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