Religious leadership on this team and Bryce Brown...

#151
#151
Oldvol75 said:
Well put. We as Christians can not judge, a judge sentences someone, we are not judges. We are simply to plant a seed. Let God water it. Keep strong in your faith!
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Thanks. I disagree with some religions beliefs but I will not judge them. If a person wants to promote their religion peacefully I respect that and will never criticize anyone for it.
 
#152
#152
rjd970 said:
Find one thing about my ignorant statement that is factually wrong. NOT your opinion or profession of faith, but factual evidence showing any part of that logical thinking to be wrong....ie...take the statement on its merits and break it down. My money says you can't do it without bringing a religious ideal or scripture quote to bear.
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Nice caveat you've included... kinda hard to dispute a statement about God and religion without including a religious ideal. :question: However, I'm always up for a good challenge so here goes...

Below is the statement that was referenced in your challenge, and also your previous statement in which you claimed to know more about the concept (i.e. what God wants and/or doesn't want) than most believers. This knowledge you claim to have I assume did not come straight from God... since you don't believe in Him or have a relationship with Him. So, reason would lead me to believe that your knowledge is based on study, and the best source for the study of God is the Bible, since it is His inspired word. As such, you would then be aware of the following:

1. We are all born in sin and therefore have the innate characteristics of both good and evil.
2. God created us with free will, which means we make our own decisions and choose our own actions.

Given the above, it would be factually wrong to hold God accountable for wars and differences since these are decisions and actions that are made by man, not God.

rjd970 said:
If God was so clear on what he wants, there wouldn't be a single religious war or difference since the whole thing took off. God (if he exists) isn't clear what he wants.....you (the pious) are clear on what you think he wants. That is a monumental difference. I really don't see how you can say "God is clear what he wants" like it is an objective statement.
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rjd970 said:
I said we couldn't possibly know what he wants. How can this even be misunderstood as trying to explain what he/she/it wants? I would bet I understand this concept better than most pious do.
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#153
#153
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Nice caveat you've included... kinda hard to dispute a statement about God and religion without including a religious ideal. :question: However, I'm always up for a good challenge so here goes...

Below is the statement that was referenced in your challenge, and also your previous statement in which you claimed to know more about the concept (i.e. what God wants and/or doesn't want) than most believers. This knowledge you claim to have I assume did not come straight from God... since you don't believe in Him or have a relationship with Him. So, reason would lead me to believe that your knowledge is based on study, and the best source for the study of God is the Bible, since it is His inspired word. As such, you would then be aware of the following:

1. We are all born in sin and therefore have the innate characteristics of both good and evil.
2. God created us with free will, which means we make our own decisions and choose our own actions.

Given the above, it would be factually wrong to hold God accountable for wars and differences since these are decisions and actions that are made by man, not God.
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Nice try.
 
#154
#154
rjd970 said:
Nice try.
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But rjd, you must me honest and note that what you believe as "fact" is only your opponion based on man made information called science, sort of a bible if you will. Because as we all all know, scientist can create theories to fit their position. Atleast as Christians, we do use an older book for our faith.:)
 
#155
#155
Oldvol75 said:
But rjd, you must me honest and note that what you believe as "fact" is only your opponion based on man made information called science, sort of a bible if you will. Because as we all all know, scientist can create theories to fit their position. Atleast as Christians, we do use an older book for our faith.:)
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Seriously, what am I calling fact? You think too much like religion does...unlike you, I'm not certain about anything. I understand absolutes are in abundance with what you believe (God exists, Jesus is the savior, etc) but from my point of view absolutes associated with anything I believe are rare.

Whether it be big bang, evolution, or any other theory you guys find as a threat...I am simply saying the evidence for these notions are compelling enough to say at the present time, they offer the best explanation.
 
#156
#156
rjd970 said:
Seriously, what am I calling fact? You think too much like religion does...unlike you, I'm not certain about anything. I understand absolutes are in abundance with what you believe (God exists, Jesus is the savior, etc) but from my point of view absolutes associated with anything I believe are rare.
.
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Seems contradictory to me, since you appear to be certain that God does not exist. What's interesting to me is that you are determined to prove God's non-existence and/or at least question it at every opportunity, but yet claim that you are not concerned. Seemingly another contradiction, perhaps?
 
#157
#157
volfanjustin said:
Its not my place to say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I know what I believe and that is all that I can control
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It is your "place", as a Christian, to tell people what the Bible says about where the non-believer WILL spend eternity.
The Word is VERY clear as to where the unbeliever will be when the judgement day comes.
Some on here want to pin this on me as "judgement". It is not and I am not ashamed/afraid to point out what the Bible says.
I agree with you about not telling anyone that their "religion/place of worship" is wrong. I do not agree that the Christian should not tell anyone where the Bible says we will spend eternity.
 
#158
#158
T-TownVol said:
It is your "place", as a Christian, to tell people what the Bible says about where the non-believer WILL spend eternity.
The Word is VERY clear as to where the unbeliever will be when the judgement day comes.
Some on here want to pin this on me as "judgement". It is not and I am not ashamed/afraid to point out what the Bible says.
I agree with you about not telling anyone that their "religion/place of worship" is wrong. I do not agree that the Christian should not tell anyone where the Bible says we will spend eternity.
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You may be right, I just hesitate to tell someone their religion or lack there of is wrong and due to that they are going to hell. I do believe that not believing or believing in anyone other than Jesus Christ is wrong. These choices are their own and they will have to live with those consequences. I will continue to say what I believe and what I think is the right way.
 
#159
#159
Tell people what the Bible says. It is not "you" telling them. They will choose to believe or not. That is all we can, and are commanded to, do as believers.
 
#161
#161
volfanjustin said:
Absolutely. No arguements from me on this.
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The non-believer will always throw the "don't judge me"...."the Bible says that you should not judge me", at you. Speaking the truth of the Word is not judging.
Stay strong in your faith Brother.
 
#162
#162
T-TownVol said:
It is your "place", as a Christian, to tell people what the Bible says about where the non-believer WILL spend eternity.
The Word is VERY clear as to where the unbeliever will be when the judgement day comes.
Some on here want to pin this on me as "judgement". It is not and I am not ashamed/afraid to point out what the Bible says.
I agree with you about not telling anyone that their "religion/place of worship" is wrong. I do not agree that the Christian should not tell anyone where the Bible says we will spend eternity.
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once again why would a loving god send a good person to hell simply because that person isn't sure god exists? surely you must realize a percentage of the bible at least was written by humans and therefore needs to be disregarded.
 
#163
#163
droski said:
once again why would a loving god send a good person to hell simply because that person isn't sure god exists? surely you must realize a percentage of the bible at least was written by humans and therefore needs to be disregarded.
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I do not "disregard" any of the Bible. It was written by human hand, I will agree with you on this point.
I would not try to tell you why, all I know is that he says that he will. Read the last three chapter of Revelations. It is very clear who will spend eternity in heaven.
 
#164
#164
droski said:
once again why would a loving god send a good person to hell simply because that person isn't sure god exists? surely you must realize a percentage of the bible at least was written by humans and therefore needs to be disregarded.
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T-TownVol said:
I do not "disregard" any of the Bible. It was written by human hand, I will agree with you on this point.
I would not try to tell you why, all I know is that he says that he will. Read the last three chapter of Revelations. It is very clear who will spend eternity in heaven.
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Droski, what you're asking is a fair question. But my response would be that God doesn't send people to hell... they instead make the choice themselves. If someone has had the opportunity to know and accept the gift of Christ (which isn't asking for a whole lot), but they reject it (which could equate to rejecting God) then I don't consider this unloving. If someone isn't sure (as opposed to an atheist who clearly claims there is no God), then they should simply investigate and learn more. Statistics support that after truly looking into the life and death of Jesus many people come to realize and accept Him as their Savior. I personally have more sympathy with atheists than agnostics from the perspective that they have at least considered the possibility and have made a definite choice... although I believe it is the wrong choice. But if someone "isn't sure" they should look into it further.

I agree with T-town that the Bible (which was written by humans but inspired by God) is very clear on who goes to heaven. However, who goes to hell and whether they're tormented forever or not is actually somewhat debated among biblical scholars. The Bible is also clear that everyone will know the name of Jesus at the time of his second coming, so everyone will have the opportunity to accept him at some point. IMO, those who have died prior to having the opportunity to know Him (infants, people in third world countries, etc) will not necessarily end up in hell. The Bible also says that all of God's children will go to heaven. We are all born as children of God, so possibly only those who knowingly reject (or do not accept) salvation as a gift are those who do not go to heaven. I admit having questions about certain things in the Bible (I've studied the Book of Rev. a couple of times and it's a real brain twister), but there is definitely (at least for me) a foundation that is very solid. That said, I actually enjoy learning as much as I can and find it quite interesting.
 
#165
#165
IBlvNTmWrk said:
If someone has had the opportunity to know and accept the gift of Christ (which isn't asking for a whole lot), but they reject it (which could equate to rejecting God) then I don't consider this unloving. If someone isn't sure (as opposed to an atheist who clearly claims there is no God), then they should simply investigate and learn more. Statistics support that after truly looking into the life and death of Jesus many people come to realize and accept Him as their Savior.
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i think it is asking a whole lot really. we're talking about 2 hours a week. and all because i might go to hell? no thanks
 
#166
#166
droski said:
i think it is asking a whole lot really. we're talking about 2 hours a week. and all because i might go to hell? no thanks
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Do you apply the same logic and ROI criteria when making your investment decisions? If so, this one seems to be a no-brainer... 2 hrs/week = eternity. :)
 
#169
#169
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Do you apply the same logic and ROI criteria when making your investment decisions? If so, this one seems to be a no-brainer... 2 hrs/week = eternity. :)
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let's see 2 hours a week for 50 years, 52 weeks a year for a what 1 in a hundred chance of going to hell (i'm being generous)? i'll take that chance. :)
 
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#170
#170
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Do you apply the same logic and ROI criteria when making your investment decisions? If so, this one seems to be a no-brainer... 2 hrs/week = eternity. :)
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does it count if you're only doing it for a tradeoff? Isn't god smarter than that?
 
#171
#171
utvolpj said:
does it count if you're only doing it for a tradeoff? Isn't god smarter than that?
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My guess would be there's been a few near death acceptances that decided to make the tradeoff. Plus... there's the added benefit that once you get to heaven you will have all the answers to the various questions RJD and others have posed. I wonder if they have use of the internets in hell? If so, I'll send you guys an email. :p
 
#172
#172
I'd rather Live believing there is a God, and finding out there is not, than to live believing there is no God, and finding out there is.
 
#175
#175
droski said:
once again why would a loving god send a good person to hell simply because that person isn't sure god exists? surely you must realize a percentage of the bible at least was written by humans and therefore needs to be disregarded.
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God doesn't send you to hell. He gives you an option. I wasn't sure God existed either at one point, then I found out. All of the Bible was written my mans hand, but inspired by God. Thats almost like saying that and all powerful God could not do a simple thing like,"Hey you! Write this down!" If He can create a universe and man, He could certainly get mans attention long enough to have that man write down what He wanted to say. People take dictation every day!
 
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