Religious Survey

[GVF]

But you said God judges on his life and belief. My question is still- if never exposed to the teaching of Christ, will one go to hell? Are there people put on this earth who, although good people, are predetermined to spend eternity in hell?

That is a very tough question, and one that bothers alot of people. A lot of people use that to ask why they should go to Church if everyone doesn't have the same chance. My answer to that is I don't know the exact answer to give, not being God or Christ. At the same time, I do read the same verses you are referring in part. My problem is that I cannot refuse God in my life based on something out of my control. God will not be concerned with all that in regards to me. And come judgement day, when I do gain all knowledge in him, I'll understand when I ask, "what about that", he gives his answer, and I say yeah, I didn't realize that.

 

[utvolpj]

Yes. There are a lot of good people that will be denied. Who never accepted salvation. who were never Baptized (immersed) into Christ for remission of sins. Who thought just being a good person was enough. And don't be so foolish to believe that all who enter the doors of churches will be admitted. There will be a lot of false prophets in line B. God forgive for this one, but i haven't seen any TV preachers I'd rely on for guidance.

But here you say the ones who don't accept salvation will be denied. How do you state this as fact and admit you don't know in the next breath? I can never believe that God will ONLY allow those who took Christ as their Savior into heaven. It seems such a narrow-minded and discriminatory tactic for Him. I believe in a more welcoming God and a forgiving one, not a judgmental one who creates and kicks out those who never had a chance.

There are also many who never had the chance and ability to hear His true teachings. Are they condemned too? This would basically equate your ability to get into Heaven on chance, like a cosmic lottery. I'll believe in no God at all before I believe in that one. I already play the lottery and know the odds.

 

[utvolpj]

And I don't mean to come off judgmental GVF, I have just reached a point in my life where I have started question much of what I once truly believed.

 

[GVF]

And I don't mean to come off judgmental GVF, I have just reached a point in my life where I have started question much of what I once truly believed.

I completely understand, and am not taking you judgemental. There is a noticeable difference in being antagonistic and searching. But, I do want to make one thing clear. I, ME, am not saying anything. I am quoting/referring to scripture. Those are not my commands. I know the struggles that cause one to question. In part, I think God favors you more right now in the place you are verses someone say as myself who may be riding along in a lukewarm gear. Those he will spew out of his mouth like water for they are neither for or against. You on the other hand have an active mind and heart. If you lose that, then I would be concerned. But, the scriptures are very direct on what one must do to inherit salvation. It is our task to accept or reject, not set it aside over rhetorical debates of a hidden tribe somewhere just to say we're not going to be religious to a God that would condemn such as never heard or obeyed. I will return shortly. It's bath time for the kids. I also need to address My Blood Runneth Orange question.

 

[GVF]

But here you say the ones who don't accept salvation will be denied. How do you state this as fact and admit you don't know in the next breath? I can never believe that God will ONLY allow those who took Christ as their Savior into heaven. It seems such a narrow-minded and discriminatory tactic for Him. I believe in a more welcoming God and a forgiving one, not a judgmental one who creates and kicks out those who never had a chance.

There are also many who never had the chance and ability to hear His true teachings. Are they condemned too? This would basically equate your ability to get into Heaven on chance, like a cosmic lottery. I'll believe in no God at all before I believe in that one. I already play the lottery and know the odds.

If you knew about his teachings at all, how would you never have the chance to hear the truth. Your charge here is not to hang on my word, but to go back to The Word and maybe just use my intrepretation as a starting point to seek the truth for yourself. We are charged to "Study to show thyself approved." If I hang my hat on what 'Falwell' I will be discouraged. If I hang my hat on the truth...

At some point in your life, you heard. From then on it is your charge to seek and maintain the truth. Whether it be where you settle in your place of worship, or in your study. You and I cannot get each other in. We can edify each other. But, I cannot justify to God why I may have left God because person B was a stumbling block to me, or because I did not fathom the wisdom of one of his teachings.

 

[GVF]

Are you a Bible literalist GVF? I am guessing from your posts that you are. If so, how would you interpret Romans 8, 9, and 10? I don't see how a literalist could interpret it any other way than predestination.

I wouldn't say a literalist. But, I do try my best to follow the scripture and interpret it as it is written. Romans 8, 9, and 10? You're a toughy right off the bat. I'll try to do this simply, as I understand what is written:

First, the overall theme here life through Christ. Making that choice to be a christian, or not. C.8:1 - There is no condmenation for those in Christ... C.8:5- Those who live according to sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires... [If we are predestined, how are we free to make either of these two choices?] C.8:13- If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeads of the body, you will live. [Again, if we are predestined, we would not have the power within ourselves to make the change that verse 13 grants can be made.]

Now, what you are referring to more specifically is in C.8:29,30. [Now, the Bible cannot be mutually exclusive, so if God teaches elsewhere that you have the choice to be saved or condemned, then you cannot also be predestined.] 'For those God forknew He also predestined to be conformed in the likeness of his Son...and those he predestined, he also called, justified, and glorified. [O.K. He is not necessarily speaking of specific persons here. It is more of a reference to a "group" of people if you will, that have the character it will take to be christians. God knows as well that not all will choose to follow him. He says that his teachings are hard and just and not all will be able to accept. The reference to predestiny is for those who are called to his purpose. Those who accept the Word. Those will be conformed to the likeness of his son. There may be some literal reference here if you want to go deeper, however. To follow the lineage of Christ, one must accept that some things were set in place because Jesus was to be born through the line of David. V.29 also says 'so that he may be the first born of many brothers.' This can have 2 meanings. Literally, if you want to follow the predestination of his lineage, Jesus did have earthly brothers and sisters, of which he was the first born. Couldn't have been a virgin birth if he was 2nd. The second interpretation being where I was above. That we are predistined as Christians to have salvation and predestined if we die in our sins to have damnation. It is our choice, not destiny that places us in either group.]

C.10:4-Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. [No predestination there.]

C.10:12- For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him.

C.10:13 - Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Not to be confused with the only thing you have to do to be saved. God also instructs to hear the Word, believe the Word, Repent, Confess him before men, and be baptized and you will be saved.)

[Here in these verses, you also find the continuing theme of free choice. Christians are predestined. Non-Christians are predestined. Those who think they are christians are predestined, etc... Our redemption is we have a choice of the predestined group to which we identify. You personally are not predestined and neither am I. And to those who will still argue this, answer me this question from my perspective: If we are in fact predestined, how would one know whether or not they were predestined to heaven or hell unless God had already revealed that to you. Idealogically, it is imposible to be predestined, for who is to say what your destiny is, and how would you know psycologically to even question your predestination unless you had freedom of thought. If you have freedom of thought would you not also have freedom of choice. If you are predestined, you are a robot and thus your thoughts are already decided for you. Which means you were predestined to eat at McDonald's today and you did not consciously choose not to eat anywhere else.]

 

[GVF]

For utvolpj:

Also a thought on those who "never had the chance to hear":

Romans C.10:20 refers to a quote of God by Isaiah in the Old Testament:

'I was found by those who did not seek me, I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.'

In some way, God has planted the innate knowledge of a supreme being in the minds of all men. There has never in the history of man ever been a civilization that did not have some type of reverence to a higher being. Do they have the whole truth as in having access to these scriptures? Have we sought them out for teaching? Scipture is what it is. Yes, it does say specific things about how to be saved, but I am also leary of "judging" another's place less I be judged more than that.

 

[therealUT]

This is to GVF: you are absolutely and categorically wrong in your posts in this thread. That is all I will say to you now.

 

[GVF]

This is to GVF: you are absolutely and categorically wrong in your posts in this thread. That is all I will say to you now.

I was using scripture straight from the text. You merely made an unsubstantiated accusation that was not made with any show of corrected interpretation of scripture, or the consideration that you may in fact not be right at all. Are you sure I'm the one that is categorically wrong, or are you one who alters the Word to appease a lifestyle, instead of lifestyle to appease the Word.

Matt. 3:5 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Am I categorically wrong here. It is a direct quote of the Almighty. If you choose to condemn my 30 years in scripture, do me the honor of correcting me with my own sword, and not a lame accusation in which you provide no evidence of rebuttal. I simply supplied some of my 'knowledge' of scripture in a conversation with a couple of posters who were questioning me directly on some things, and whom also I provided scripture so they may read for themselves and not of my mouth.

 

[therealUT]

I was using scripture straight from the text. You merely made an unsubstantiated accusation that was not made with any show of corrected interpretation of scripture, or the consideration that you may in fact not be right at all. Are you sure I'm the one that is categorically wrong, or are you one who alters the Word to appease a lifestyle, instead of lifestyle to appease the Word.

Matt. 3:5 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Am I categorically wrong here. It is a direct quote of the Almighty. If you choose to condemn my 30 years in scripture, do me the honor of correcting me with my own sword, and not a lame accusation in which you provide no evidence of rebuttal. I simply supplied some of my 'knowledge' of scripture in a conversation with a couple of posters who were questioning me directly on some things, and whom also I provided scripture so they may read for themselves and not of my mouth.

I am positive. You should do some research on history of Christianity and on the protestant reformation. Until then, I will not engage in any more conversation regarding Christianity with anyone who takes the Bible literally.

 

[GVF]

I am positive. You should do some research on history of Christianity and on the protestant reformation. Until then, I will not engage in any more conversation regarding Christianity with anyone who takes the Bible literally.

And you know I have no knowledge of these things. If you are not to believe the Word of God as He gave it to us, how then do you propose to read the Word. How would you non-literally read "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the remissions of your sins, and you will be saved."

Don't give me Islam, or Catholic practices, or Greek philosophy, and so on. All I need is the word of God. Five of my wife's catholic family including her became New Testament Christians, which is the christianity of the early church and that of the reformation by literally studying the word. The preacher who conducted those studies is also married to a former catholic. My mother, a former Methodist became a New Testament Christian by literally studying the word. Alexander Campbell, one of the fathers of the restoration of New Testament worship must have viewed the scriptures literally, or there would have been no knowledge of the need for reformation. The need for restoration arose from centuries of NOT taking the Bible literal enough. Today, we have religious groups that are way out. Are they OK since they are not literal interpreters. Maybe if the Episcopals or Presbys (?) read God's word more literal, they would not ordain homosexual persons as priests. A lifestyle that is specifically condemned to hell if you die in it. Being in the military, if you are given a handbook outlining procedures of military conduct, do you take it literally, or do you "enhance" it with your rhetoric and do as you please? What would happen if you did? Why then am I an idiot for believing my handbook. The fact that you would be so judgmental and offensive of my beliefs that I base soley on the word of God and not man, tells me that your interpretation is not wholly based on teachings of Christ. How do you actually teach the truth the way you respond to even me. You don't have the truth, else you would not behave as such. I am appalled that a man that has studied so many various religions to gain understanding of them has no tolerance for one's religion. Your quest is hypocritical, not of truth and love.

 

[GVF]

To TRUT:
You still have not rebuked me by the Word. Will you continue to criticize me w/o backing it up in scripture. Until you can rebuke me with scripture, instead of the history of world religions, I will continue to read the Bible in it's printed version as given by God.

You butted in on a conversation that directly involved others by bashing me with the love of your non-literal religion. You have given no scriptural basis for your attack of my inferior beliefs as compared to the great TRUT House of Religious History. I have not spoke of anything that was not supplied with scripture to direct one to read for themselves. :bow: :bow: I yield to your revelation of what God not so literally meant, literally speaking of course. Although you will object, I'll include you in my prayers tonight. More for my sake than yours I guess, as I literally am human and literally have bad thoughts to deal with.

John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it." Not are able to accept the bible literally and live according to God's plan. Some insist that they have the knowledge and wisdom to supercede God's teachings, and create human altered forms of the church that adopt an edited version of the truth in order to justify an easier non-literal approach to worshipping God.

 

[GVF]

But here you say the ones who don't accept salvation will be denied. How do you state this as fact and admit you don't know in the next breath? I can never believe that God will ONLY allow those who took Christ as their Savior into heaven. It seems such a narrow-minded and discriminatory tactic for Him. I believe in a more welcoming God and a forgiving one, not a judgmental one who creates and kicks out those who never had a chance.

God is welcoming and forgiving. He instructed Noah and his family how to build a boat that would save them and 2 of all creatures from certain death. He allowed Lot and his family to leave the sin cities before he destroyed them. God does not discriminate. He will welcome all who accept him according to the scriptures. White, black, jew, russian... He gives us the choice. He knows he has the power to make us love him. He wants us to want to love him. we are the one's that discriminate and condemn ourselves. He also says he will destroy those who do not. That is not discrimination. It is judgement for all. Read Luke 13:24+ as well.

 

[therealUT]

I do not have to rebuke you by the word...unless you accept Queen Elizabeth I as a prophet.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

First, the overall theme here life through Christ. Making that choice to be a christian, or not. C.8:1 - There is no condmenation for those in Christ... C.8:5- Those who live according to sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires... [If we are predestined, how are we free to make either of these two choices?] C.8:13- If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeads of the body, you will live. [Again, if we are predestined, we would not have the power within ourselves to make the change that verse 13 grants can be made.]

Where in any of those verses does it say that we are free to make a choice? I see where it talks about those who are in Christ, and those who are not. I do not see where it says that anyone is free to make a choice. Let's look at some of the verses that you skipped.

C.8:6- For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7- Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God. nor indeed can be. 8- So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now, what you are referring to more specifically is in C.8:29,30. [Now, the Bible cannot be mutually exclusive, so if God teaches elsewhere that you have the choice to be saved or condemned, then you cannot also be predestined.] 'For those God forknew He also predestined to be conformed in the likeness of his Son...and those he predestined, he also called, justified, and glorified. [O.K. He is not necessarily speaking of specific persons here. It is more of a reference to a "group" of people if you will, that have the character it will take to be christians. God knows as well that not all will choose to follow him. He says that his teachings are hard and just and not all will be able to accept. The reference to predestiny is for those who are called to his purpose. Those who accept the Word. Those will be conformed to the likeness of his son.

That's part of it, but Romans 9 goes into much more detail.

If 29 and 30 refer to a group of people, it is still a group that consists of individuals. And if, as you say, it is a group of people who have the character it takes to be christians, then those character traits were still given to the individuals by God at creation, thus it is still God's choice to make.

9:15- For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16-So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17- For the scripture says to Pharoah, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth ."
18- Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19- You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20- But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21- Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
22- What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23- and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24- even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:15-24 NKJV)

You personally are not predestined and neither am I. And to those who will still argue this, answer me this question from my perspective: If we are in fact predestined, how would one know whether or not they were predestined to heaven or hell unless God had already revealed that to you. Idealogically, it is imposible to be predestined, for who is to say what your destiny is, and how would you know psycologically to even question your predestination unless you had freedom of thought. If you have freedom of thought would you not also have freedom of choice. If you are predestined, you are a robot and thus your thoughts are already decided for you. Which means you were predestined to eat at McDonald's today and you did not consciously choose not to eat anywhere else.]

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist. I'm not even a christian for that matter, but here is my basic understanding of the TULIP principle of Calvinism.

Total depravity of man. Mankind is so totally depraved that he cannot even approach God. Man is incapable of desiring salvation without the direct intervention of God.
Unconditional election. the election of God's chosen is without condition. There is nothing that man can do to add one thing to his election. It is God's choice and God's alone.
Limited atonement. Christ died and rose again to atone for the sins of the elect only.
Irresitable Grace. Those who are chosen by God will be saved and nothing can change that. Or to coin a phrase from one of my favorite television shows. Resistance is futile.
Perseverance of the saints. Or in other words. Once saved, always saved.

Not saying that this is what I actually believe, just that this is my understanding of the doctrine of Calvinism based on years of study. Spurgeon, one of the great evangelists of his day, was a TULIP Calvinist. His writings are a wealth of info on the subject. My other point is that I don't see how a person can believe that the bible is the literal Word of God and not believe the doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

And I don't mean to come off judgmental GVF, I have just reached a point in my life where I have started question much of what I once truly believed.

Seems like I'm not the only one. I've been at that point for a couple of years now.

 

[GVF]

Where in any of those verses does it say that we are free to make a choice? I see where it talks about those who are in Christ, and those who are not. I do not see where it says that anyone is free to make a choice. Let's look at some of the verses that you skipped.

You Can't just stay in Romans. Back up to Acts 2:38+ - Then Peter Said to them, "Repent and let every one of you be baptizedin the name of Jesus Chrisst for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call. And with many other words he he testified and exhorted them saying, 'Be saved from this perverse generation.' Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them." How would it be possible to add souls to a predestined selection. A predestined selection would indicate that there is already a set number. If we're predestined, why are we all worshipping different teachings. If I am predestined, and was selected before birth to be in the out crowd, how do I possess the desire to seek out God if my inborn nature is to be lost. Also, after doing some more reading, you need to consider the history of Israel when reading these chapters. There was a predestined group so to speak in the beginning. God chose the people of Israel to be the chosen people. That is who he gave the gospel to at first and who he also chose to bring Jesus through in his lineage. Ultimately Israel rejected God and Jesus, and crucified him. That crucifiction fulfilled the prophecies, and also established the church. In the first few verses of chapter 9, Paul refers to the confirmation of Israel as God's choice. Later in the Chapter, v.30-32, Paul references the Jews not attaining righteousness, but the Getniles doing so. True predestination as we are discussing it would have precluded the Gentiles from persuing and attaining righteousness. Then in Chapter 10, you see Israel beginning the rejection of Christ. In Verse 1, he prays that Israel may be saved. If they were predestined as the chosen people of God, how then were they in peril of perishing.

Verse 10-13- For with the heart one believes to righteousness, nd with the mouth cenfession is made to salvation. For the scripture says, "Whoever believes on him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the name of the Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whover calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If you can call upon the name of the Lord, even to your slvation, how would you be predestined. If you are predestined, you already have salvation, or damnation, so how do you seek it. I think Romans in these chapters are showing one of the transitions of the gospel and salvation from the chosen (predestined) people of Israel, to the Word being for all people who choose to follow God. More of a scolding to the Israelites.

C.8:6- For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7- Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God. nor indeed can be. 8- So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Indeed, people who are in the flesh cannot please God. Being in the flesh means we are living according to man and not God. We are of the world and not just in it as a christian should be. We should seek to leave the world of the flesh, and attain the world of the spirit.

That's part of it, but Romans 9 goes into much more detail.

If 29 and 30 refer to a group of people, it is still a group that consists of individuals. And if, as you say, it is a group of people who have the character it takes to be christians, then those character traits were still given to the individuals by God at creation, thus it is still God's choice to make.

9:15- For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16-So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17- For the scripture says to Pharoah, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth ."
18- Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19- You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20- But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21- Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
22- What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23- and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24- even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:15-24 NKJV)

Good verses. I also see those verses as chastisement to a people that continually disobeyed God for centuries. But, let's consider this. Do you know anyone who was not really a good peron biblically speaking, and did not live in good ways by any means, then changed and became religious. You'd have thought they were predestined to hell, but all of a sudden they received God. In a sense God does know the decisions we will make in life. He created us. He has said he knew the hairs on our heads. Knew us before we were in our mother' womb. etc... But, did he program us to salvation or damnation. You can pull one single verse here and there and make it say many things, but the new testament in its entirety is a road map for christian living that is offered to all who would receive. He does say that narrow is the gate and hard is the road that leads to salvation and that few ill enter, but that is not because he predestined us, it's because alot of people will not accept God.

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist. I'm not even a christian for that matter, but here is my basic understanding of the TULIP principle of Calvinism.

Total depravity of man. Mankind is so totally depraved that he cannot even approach God. Man is incapable of desiring salvation without the direct intervention of God.
Unconditional election. the election of God's chosen is without condition. There is nothing that man can do to add one thing to his election. It is God's choice and God's alone.
Limited atonement. Christ died and rose again to atone for the sins of the elect only.
Irresitable Grace. Those who are chosen by God will be saved and nothing can change that. Or to coin a phrase from one of my favorite television shows. Resistance is futile.
Perseverance of the saints. Or in other words. Once saved, always saved.

I'm not really up on this TULIP you outlined. But, I don't beleive the Bible teaches you have pemanent salvation once you attain it. You can lose it. He instructs that it will be worse for those in the day of judgement that knew God and turned away than for those who never knew God. This indicates that a person again is not predestined, but of choice. I can't say that I've studied other religions to any degree other than basic interests and a little knowledge of their practices. I don't own any books/bibles of other religious creeds. I only subscribe to the teachings in the New Testament as my guide to salvation and christian living.

Not saying that this is what I actually believe, just that this is my understanding of the doctrine of Calvinism based on years of study. Spurgeon, one of the great evangelists of his day, was a TULIP Calvinist. His writings are a wealth of info on the subject. My other point is that I don't see how a person can believe that the bible is the literal Word of God and not believe the doctrine of Calvinism.

It would be easy to accept the Bible as the Word of God. It was here first. Was there any recorded religion or doctrine that existed and had written creed prior to the Word of God. All modern religions have a tie in some way to teachings and concepts from the bible. You can find scripture in the islamic bible, hindu, whatever, that have verses that are paraphrased quotes from the literal scripture. If all modern religions went back to scripture for their doctrination, why would I not refuse the confusing doctrines of men, and just go to the source. I don't need Calvinism, Catholocism, well any of them because I'm gonna get smoked by someone for either mentioning or not mentioning a religion. I just need the word of God. Also, thanks for the brainwork, it's been enjoyable as well as challenging.

 

[GVF]

QUOTE(utvolpj @ Aug 4, 2006 7:25 PM) *

And I don't mean to come off judgmental GVF, I have just reached a point in my life where I have started question much of what I once truly believed.

Seems like I'm not the only one. I've been at that point for a couple of years now.

Just a thought, not pushing for anything, but if you ever feel like meeting with someone in studies of the scripture, I just need to know where you are and I can find a contact.

 

[therealUT]

QUOTE(utvolpj @ Aug 4, 2006 7:25 PM) *

And I don't mean to come off judgmental GVF, I have just reached a point in my life where I have started question much of what I once truly believed.
Just a thought, not pushing for anything, but if you ever feel like meeting with someone in studies of the scripture, I just need to know where you are and I can find a contact.

Here's a better thought: STOP STATING THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE GOING TO HELL!

 

[GVF]

Here's a better thought: STOP STATING THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE GOING TO HELL!

I did not state that. I have never stated that. What I have done is refer to scriptures where GOD says that. It is not my word, but GOD'S Word. You have the God given choice to accept that, believe, dis-believe, whatever. Your judgement will be separate from mine and mine from yours.

Matt. 25:46- And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Rm. 2:8,9
Matt. 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.
Rev.20:10- And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. V.13-The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were with them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone found not written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

2 Thes. 1:8,9 ...in flaming fire taking vengence on those who do not know God {same as rejecting/Atheism?}, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.


Where in all of that did I say that people that do not believe in God or do not accept Him are going to hell. Those are not my teachings. I have accepted those teachings and have become a christian. not everyone will do that. I personally have never told a person directly they will go to hell if they don't do this. I cannot. I am not the judge. Matthew chapter 5 tells me that whosoever I judge, I will be judged many more times. What I have done is try to convey the truth and the message and the good news. If people accept that, conversely they will inherit eternal life. In studies I have done, never have I told anyone they will go to hell. If they ask those questions I give them scriptures and let them read and tell me what God is saying. Again, those are God's teachings on the judgement of non-believers.

Just out of curiosity since you have studied Judaism and Islam. Have they not already rejected Jesus. Jesus says the only way to the Father is through Him. If you only believe in God and do not accept his Son, where is your interceder?

 

[therealUT]

Just out of curiosity since you have studied Judaism and Islam. Have they not already rejected Jesus. Jesus says the only way to the Father is through Him. If you only believe in God and do not accept his Son, where is your interceder?

The scriputes also state that whomever serves the least of their neighbors serves Christ. Therefore, those people who serve their neighbors, are indeed serving God and do indeed know God. I might add that they know God more than someone who shouts at the top of their voice that they are a Christian.

Also, Judaism and Islam do not reject Jesus. Jesus is mentioned by name in the Koran. His mother, Mary, is the only woman mentioned in the entire Koran. Modern Judaism looks upon Jesus as a great Rabbi.

I would like to leave you with a quote that I believe most fundamentalists will never live by:

Preach Christ always, use words if necessary.

St. Francis of Assissi

Oh, and just to let you in on a little secret...the faith relationship between yourself and God that works for your life, does not necessarily work for everyone's life. Peoples are inherently different. Therefore they will worship God in different ways. I do not find it a mere coincidence that at the very core of all the major world religions, the message is the same. Some people choose to believe in falsehoods about other religions, most people choose not to educate themselves about other religions. Yet, these people are the ones that get caught up in the ritual and customs, instead of the meaning.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Good verses. I also see those verses as chastisement to a people that continually disobeyed God for centuries. But, let's consider this. Do you know anyone who was not really a good peron biblically speaking, and did not live in good ways by any means, then changed and became religious. You'd have thought they were predestined to hell, but all of a sudden they received God. In a sense God does know the decisions we will make in life. He created us. He has said he knew the hairs on our heads. Knew us before we were in our mother' womb. etc... But, did he program us to salvation or damnation. You can pull one single verse here and there and make it say many things, but the new testament in its entirety is a road map for christian living that is offered to all who would receive. He does say that narrow is the gate and hard is the road that leads to salvation and that few ill enter, but that is not because he predestined us, it's because alot of people will not accept God.

I can believe that God knew each person's decision before they ever made it, and somehow that is tied in to the doctrine of predestination, but that dosen't change that there are people in this world who will never have the choice to make. There are millions in this world who have never and will never hear of Jesus of Nazereth. If you accept that Jesus is the only way into heaven, then those people were born predestined to hell somehow. The only other alternatives I see are the doctrine of purgatory which realUT has been talking about, or universal salvation, which teaches that everyone will eventually be saved.

I'm not really up on this TULIP you outlined. But, I don't beleive the Bible teaches you have pemanent salvation once you attain it. You can lose it. He instructs that it will be worse for those in the day of judgement that knew God and turned away than for those who never knew God. This indicates that a person again is not predestined, but of choice. I can't say that I've studied other religions to any degree other than basic interests and a little knowledge of their practices. I don't own any books/bibles of other religious creeds. I only subscribe to the teachings in the New Testament as my guide to salvation and christian living.

Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation is a gift, verse 9 goes on to say that it can't be earned by works. Now if it is something that one can earn and then lose, possibly earn again and lose it again, then it ceases to become a free gift. What would a person have to do to earn it, and how would he then lose it?

If all modern religions went back to scripture for their doctrination, why would I not refuse the confusing doctrines of men, and just go to the source. I don't need Calvinism, Catholocism, well any of them because I'm gonna get smoked by someone for either mentioning or not mentioning a religion. I just need the word of God. Also, thanks for the brainwork, it's been enjoyable as well as challenging.

Calvinism, Catholocism, as well as Lutheranism, Methodist, or any other denomination are not religions in and of themselves. They are belief systems that are based on a man's, or a groups interpretation of the bible. Your belief system is no different. It is how you personally, or your church (I'm guessing Chruch of Christ based on your positions thus far) interprets the bible. The bible is full of passages which can have several interpretations, and quite frankly, several passages which make no sense whatsoever.My personal opinion is that the bible is a collection of writings by ancient man, which try to convey his relationship with and to God as early man understood that relationship.

 

[Jasongivm6]

I get confused reading through some of the things in the Bible. Like in Joshua, the Isrealites go around and kill everyone and everything in sight, including animals, children, etc., and burn most of the cities and tribes to the ground. This is what God told them to do in order to "receive the Promised Land" he promised. Parting rivers so that they could walk through, hearing how these Isrealites were going around killing larger Armies terrified the Canaanites, Jebosites, and everyone else. I guess God put the fear in these people alright. They didn't get a chance, so were they all predestined to die? I think the only family God saved during the whole 7 years (or however long it took to go around and take over the land) was a prostitute and her family.

People who don't read the Bible, or don't know much about religion(s) look at these things and go :dunno:

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

In a sense they were predestined to die. Another one that puzzles me is the exodus from Egypt. If you go back and look at the story of the exodus, there is a frightening pattern. God sends a plague, the Pharaoh gives in and agrees to let the Israelites go, God hardens Pharaoh's heart, in other words He overrides Pharaoh's free will with His own, causing Pharaoh to change his mind and refuse to let the Israelites go. Then God comes back with an even greater show of force. This cycle is repeated until it ends with the death of the firstborn of Egypt and the destruction of the Egyptian army. I don't understand why all this death is necessary when Pharaoh agreed to let the Israelites go early in the confrontation. :dunno:

 

[therealUT]

To TRUT:
You still have not rebuked me by the Word. Will you continue to criticize me w/o backing it up in scripture. Until you can rebuke me with scripture, instead of the history of world religions, I will continue to read the Bible in it's printed version as given by God.

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

Matthew 16:27, NAB Version

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

KJV

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:3, NAB and KJV

I would have to believe that those who are 'poor in spirit' are not exactly solid in their faith. Yet, here, Jesus promises them heaven. I am not a Bible literalist, therefore, I do not have to struggle with my faith when passages and authors contridict each other, on the surface. The meanings I take from scripture are much deeper. However, you now have to come up for a rationalization for why Jesus said this. Being the fundamentalist that you are, and taking it upon yourself to now interpret the literal meaning of Jesus's words, I guess you would have to believe yourself to be a prophet...