Rep Massie posts gun photo

#529
#529
luthervol said:
I'm guessing the thousands of people whose lives have been saved by the stricter laws are pretty happy.
Annual gun deaths in Australia
2019: 229
2018: 209
2017: 196
2016: 232
2015: 211
2014: 230
2013: 211
2012: 226
2011: 188
2010: 232
2009: 226
2008: 235
2007: 237
2006: 245
2005: 221
2004: 243
2003: 289
2002: 292
2001: 326
2000: 324
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516 New National Firearms Agreement
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
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Gun deaths were already down 1/3 before the law, and still trending down. So it's hard to praise the law for saving lives.

How do you think the millions of innocents that have died or suffered under a government that disarmed them should feel? Grateful?

Before the freeing of slaves most gun laws were requirements to own guns as head of household or if you wanted to settle land. The first wide spread gun control (anti ownership) were against free slaves, or native Americans. Then after slavery you saw the racist laws pop up everywhere, with various "black codes", and jim crow bs.

Gun control has never been about safety, but about controlling the unarmed.
 
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#530
#530
Vol8188 said:
Which levels specifically
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I think it is similar to a "lib" congresswoman having a Christmas photo made with her and each member of her family holding up signs that say "I support abortion", "woman's body, woman's choice", "pro-choice", and her young son sitting there holding a sign that says "No man should tell a woman what to do with her body".

However that photo would go over with you, is probably like how this nut's gun photo went over with me.
 
#531
#531
LouderVol said:
Gun deaths were already down 1/3 before the law, and still trending down. So it's hard to praise the law for saving lives.

How do you think the millions of innocents that have died or suffered under a government that disarmed them should feel? Grateful?

Before the freeing of slaves most gun laws were requirements to own guns as head of household or if you wanted to settle land. The first wide spread gun control (anti ownership) were against free slaves, or native Americans. Then after slavery you saw the racist laws pop up everywhere, with various "black codes", and jim crow bs.

Gun control has never been about safety, but about controlling the unarmed.
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It wasn't down 1/3rd. I think the people whose lives were saved and their families and loved ones are beyond grateful - even though they have no idea who they are.
 
#532
#532
luthervol said:
I think it is similar to a "lib" congresswoman having a Christmas photo made with her and each member of her family holding up signs that say "I support abortion", "woman's body, woman's choice", "pro-choice", and her young son sitting there holding a sign that says "No man should tell a woman what to do with her body".

However that photo would go over with you, is probably like how this nut's gun photo went over with me.
Click to expand...

I doubt he would care enough to start a thread about such a photo.
 
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#533
#533
luthervol said:
It wasn't down 1/3rd. I think the people whose lives were saved and their families and loved ones are beyond grateful - even though they have no idea who they are.
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Uh 1985 it was in the upper 600s
1995 it was upper 400s
200 is about 1/3 of that 600 number, so yes they were down. Your own numbers showed that.
 
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#534
#534
LouderVol said:
Gun deaths were already down 1/3 before the law, and still trending down. So it's hard to praise the law for saving lives.

How do you think the millions of innocents that have died or suffered under a government that disarmed them should feel? Grateful?

Before the freeing of slaves most gun laws were requirements to own guns as head of household or if you wanted to settle land. The first wide spread gun control (anti ownership) were against free slaves, or native Americans. Then after slavery you saw the racist laws pop up everywhere, with various "black codes", and jim crow bs.

Gun control has never been about safety, but about controlling the unarmed.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think it's harder to say the gun laws don't deserve praise based on those figures. It was actually only down 24% from its last uptick (over 4 years), and then dropped 38% the next 4 years after the gun laws were enacted. Keep in mind that it's harder to keep reducing towards 0% then it is to initially start reducing, and the reduction accelerated and kept going until they got a 60% reduction (from the year of enactment). I think you have to admit it's likely the gun laws deserve credit.
 
#536
#536
LouderVol said:
Uh 1985 it was in the upper 600s
1995 it was upper 400s
200 is about 1/3 of that 600 number, so yes they were down. Your own numbers showed that.
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In '96 it was the highest it had been in tree years. Hardly signifies a downward trend.
 
#537
#537
LouderVol said:
Uh 1985 it was in the upper 600s
1995 it was upper 400s
200 is about 1/3 of that 600 number, so yes they were down. Your own numbers showed that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you're counting it from its peak, so it dropped 32% in 9 years* and then dropped 36% from a much lower number in just 4 years. The rate of reduction greatly improved and also kept going.

*and for all we know, that 470 figure was an outlier. The even starker reduction that came after enactment is definitely not a fluke because we got to see it through
 
#538
#538
luthervol said:
I think it is similar to a "lib" congresswoman having a Christmas photo made with her and each member of her family holding up signs that say "I support abortion", "woman's body, woman's choice", "pro-choice", and her young son sitting there holding a sign that says "No man should tell a woman what to do with her body".

However that photo would go over with you, is probably like how this nut's gun photo went over with me.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t care unless they were wearing vagina hats too. Then I’d mock them
 
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#541
#541
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, but you're counting it from its peak, so it dropped 32% in 9 years* and then dropped 36% from a much lower number in just 4 years. The rate of reduction greatly improved and also kept going.

*and for all we know, that 470 figures was an outlier. The reduction that came after enactment is definitely not a fluke
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No different then the left counting the mass shooting that had never occurred before and saying “look it worked, we haven’t had this happen again” despite having more guns now than previous. I also hate any data with overall deaths because it includes self defense (which cdc suggest is more common than homicide) and because it includes suicide which is far more of a cultural issue than a gun problem.

It would be like claiming you support the patriot act because our one time terrorist attack that lead to it hasn’t occurred before and therefor you think it’s a success.
 
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#542
#542
luthervol said:
I should have added the vagina hats, that would have made it a better comparison.
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You consider holding a gun equally as dumb as putting a vagina on your head?

What’s dumber a penis hat or holding a gun?
 
#544
#544
Vol8188 said:
You consider holding a gun equally as dumb as putting a vagina on your head?

What’s dumber a penis hat or holding a gun?
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The pictures would be equally ridiculous in the eyes of the "opposing" side.
That's the point I'm trying to get across.
 
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#545
#545
Vol8188 said:
No different then the left counting the mass shooting that had never occurred before and saying “look it worked, we haven’t had this happen again” despite having more guns now than previous. I also hate any data with overall deaths because it includes self defense (which cdc suggest is more common than homicide) and because it includes suicide which is far more of a cultural issue than a gun problem.

It would be like claiming you support the patriot act because our one time terrorist attack that lead to it hasn’t occurred before and therefor you think it’s a success.
Click to expand...

I searched and couldn't find actual numbers of homicides committed with firearms. That would be the true measure of whether the law had any effect.
 
#546
#546
hog88 said:
I searched and couldn't find actual numbers of homicides committed with firearms. That would be the true measure of whether the law had any effect.
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I know the fbi tracks that here. I’m not certain of in Australia. You’d also need to see what the worldwide decrease in homicide was during that time interval (the 90s were a massive turning point in crime) and try to see if their percent decrease was greater than the world average
 
#547
#547
Vol8188 said:
No different then the left counting the mass shooting that had never occurred before and saying “look it worked, we haven’t had this happen again” despite having more guns now than previous. I also hate any data with overall deaths because it includes self defense (which cdc suggest is more common than homicide) and because it includes suicide which is far more of a cultural issue than a gun problem.

It would be like claiming you support the patriot act because our one time terrorist attack that lead to it hasn’t occurred before and therefor you think it’s a success.
Click to expand...

It turns out the large majority of Australia's gun deaths are suicides, and as Luther pointed out, gun suicides are far more successful than other methods, so when you prevent 200-300 gun suicides per year in Australia, only a fraction of those people are going to find a successful way to kill themselves.

Guns in Australia — Firearms, gun law and gun control
 
#548
#548
n_huffhines said:
I disagree. I think it's harder to say the gun laws don't deserve praise based on those figures. It was actually only down 24% from its last uptick (over 4 years), and then dropped 38% the next 4 years after the gun laws were enacted. Keep in mind that it's harder to keep reducing towards 0% then it is to initially start reducing, and the reduction accelerated and kept going until they got a 60% reduction (from the year of enactment). I think you have to admit it's likely the gun laws deserve credit.
Click to expand...
Except violent crimes are pretty much always descending in most developed countries. Regardless of laws. Economics are usually a pretty good indicator as well.

And it looks like it bottomed out in 2011, and has been up since. What happened to the law since then? Or are there other factors that should be looked at as the real reason for change? I dont think their law changed to be more lax, so I would think that indicates clearly other forces are more important.
 
#549
#549
luthervol said:
In '96 it was the highest it had been in tree years. Hardly signifies a downward trend.
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The year the law came out? As a one year outlier?

What's happened since 2011? 188 to 229. That's a trend, not a one year instance.
 
#550
#550
LouderVol said:
Except violent crimes are pretty much always descending in most developed countries. Regardless of laws. Economics are usually a pretty good indicator as well.

And it looks like it bottomed out in 2011, and has been up since. What happened to the law since then? Or are there other factors that should be looked at as the real reason for change? I dont think their law changed to be more lax, so I would think that indicates clearly other forces are more important.
Click to expand...

That seems to have very little to do with Australia's gun deaths figures.

Do you expect them to reduce to 0? Where would be an appropriate number to bottom out?
 
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