RIP Phil Valentine

#477
#477
Carl Pickens said:
Let’s talk about my example…. Because the lake didn’t “get out”…. The dog and the virus did
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Ok.

The threat of harm in your analogy relies on a variable that can change and may or may not be present in a given area at a specific time and is easily, quickly, and cheaply remedied by improvements to the fence and/or chaining the dog to a fixed object. Therefore, the harm caused by an escaped dog occurs during an ongoing breach of the duty of care re: containment of the dangerous dog.

None of those things is like the threat posed by a virus. His analogy is better as to all of those features.

His analogy also includes escaped toxic materials into the water, which would address your need to have something “get out” in the analogy.
 
#480
#480
Carl Pickens said:
Let’s talk about my example…. Because the lake didn’t “get out”…. The dog and the virus did
Click to expand...

If you wanna do the dog example, go back to my rabid dog analogy where you get bitten by a rabid dog many steps removed from the original rabid dog. At this point, the path from an infected person all the way back to patient zero is extremely long and convoluted. You'd have to argue that EACH AND EVERY transmission in that causal chain is the fault of china, regardless of the actions of every other country and infected person. Good luck with that.
 
#481
#481
RockyTop85 said:
Ok.

The threat of harm in your analogy relies on a variable that can change and may or may not be present in a given area at a specific time and is easily, quickly, and cheaply remedied by improvements to the fence and/or chaining the dog to a fixed object. Therefore, the harm caused by an escaped dog occurs during an ongoing breach of the duty of care re: containment of the dangerous dog.

None of those things is like the threat posed by a virus. His analogy is better as to all of those features.

His analogy also includes escaped toxic materials into the water, which would address your need to have something “get out” in the analogy.
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Your liability insurance would pay this claim in a heartbeat…. Without thinking twice.
I’d also add the virus “escaped” from the Wuhan lab as a result of a breach of care … containment of the deadly virus
 
#482
#482
evillawyer said:
If you wanna do the dog example, go back to my rabid dog analogy where you get bitten by a rabid dog many steps removed from the original rabid dog. At this point, the path from an infected person all the way back to patient zero is extremely long and convoluted. You'd have to argue that EACH AND EVERY transmission in that causal chain is the fault of china, regardless of the actions of every other country and infected person. Good luck with that.
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The Chinese let the virus escape. It’s their damn fault regardless of your BS opinion.
 
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#483
#483
Carl Pickens said:
The Chinese let the virus escape. It’s their damn fault regardless of your BS opinion.
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Let's assume it was a lab leak. If the lab leak hadn't occured, there would be no pandemic. That's true. But it does not follow that the lab leak, or even the Chinese, caused the pandemic.

Consider: If Jeffrey Dahmer hadn't been born, his victims wouldn't have been eaten. It doesn't follow that the cause of those people being eaten was Jeffrey Dahmer's parents having sex.
 
#484
#484
Carl Pickens said:
Your liability insurance would pay this claim in a heartbeat…. Without thinking twice.
I’d also add the virus “escaped” from the Wuhan lab as a result of a breach of care … containment of the deadly virus
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I’m not sure how to say it more simply: the dog can more easily be put back than notice given each time it escapes, so the dog is not like a virus. It’s a bad analogy.
 
#485
#485
evillawyer said:
Let's assume it was a lab leak. If the lab leak hadn't occured, there would be no pandemic. That's true. But it does not follow that the lab leak, or even the Chinese, caused the pandemic.

Consider: If Jeffrey Dahmer hadn't been born, his victims wouldn't have been eaten. It doesn't follow that the cause of those people being eaten was Jeffrey Dahmer's parents having sex.
Click to expand...
no-points-idiotic.gif
 
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#486
#486
evillawyer said:
Let's assume it was a lab leak. If the lab leak hadn't occured, there would be no pandemic. That's true. But it does not follow that the lab leak, or even the Chinese, caused the pandemic.

Consider: If Jeffrey Dahmer hadn't been born, his victims wouldn't have been eaten. It doesn't follow that the cause of those people being eaten was Jeffrey Dahmer's parents having sex.
Click to expand...

I don't think your example fits your argument. If the lab leak happened (and at this point, I'd have to see some kind of compelling evidence to convince me it didn't), then the carelessness of the lab staff is the original cause of the pandemic. The initial inaction and obfuscation of the Chinese government prevented any attempt at containing the virus before it became a pandemic. It is accurate, in every meaningful way, to say that the Chinese are responsible for this global pandemic.

However, that does not excuse any individual anywhere in the world from failing to exercise personal responsibility. It's not like the pandemic is a secret. It hasn't been since late 2019. If you get sick and/or die from this virus, the Chinese are not going to be compensating you or your loved ones.
 
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#487
#487
evillawyer said:
Let's assume it was a lab leak. If the lab leak hadn't occured, there would be no pandemic. That's true. But it does not follow that the lab leak, or even the Chinese, caused the pandemic.

Consider: If Jeffrey Dahmer hadn't been born, his victims wouldn't have been eaten. It doesn't follow that the cause of those people being eaten was Jeffrey Dahmer's parents having sex.
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I don’t agree with this. They’re not solely responsible for every single person who gets sick at this point, but if it escaped from their laboratory then their negligence caused the pandemic. Particularly since they were less than helpful at making people aware of the risks.
 
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#488
#488
RockyTop85 said:
I’m not sure how to say it more simply: the dog can more easily be put back than notice given each time it escapes, so the dog is not like a virus. It’s a bad analogy.
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Sure it can, but the dog escaped from your yard and killed the neighbor…. It’s your fault the neighbor is dead. You failed to properly secure your dog…. Doesn’t matter if he can be caught and put back in the yard….. the Chinese allowed the virus out and caused the pandemic …. Period. The rest is semantics
 
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#489
#489
RockyTop85 said:
I don’t agree with this. They’re not solely responsible for every single person who gets sick at this point, but if it escaped from their laboratory then their negligence caused the pandemic. Particularly since they were less than helpful at making people aware of the risks.
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Exactly…. 👍🏼
 
#491
#491
Carl Pickens said:
Sure it can, but the dog escaped from your yard and killed the neighbor…. It’s your fault the neighbor is dead. You failed to properly secure your dog…. Doesn’t matter if he can be caught and put back in the yard….. the Chinese allowed the virus out and caused the pandemic …. Period. The rest is semantics
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Again, the Chinese are at fault. The international community should hold them to account. But they're never going to be held liable for every individual death. Even if the world takes their pound of flesh from Beijing, it's going to be of little comfort to those who lost someone.
 
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#492
#492
clarksvol00 said:
For those of you arguing about it, it appears that the comments from Valentine's family were made before he was literally on his deathbed, so yeah, it is possible they're telling the truth about his change in views. See this article originally published on July 26, 2021.
Family of COVID-stricken radio host speaks out
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They relayed his message on the radio show several weeks before he passed away. Seems like it was right after he was hospitalized
 
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#493
#493
bamawriter said:
Again, the Chinese are at fault. The international community should hold them to account. But they're never going to be held liable for every individual death. Even if the world takes their pound of flesh from Beijing, it's going to be of little comfort to those who lost someone.
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I agree…. I was simply arguing with the fat, urine smelling cat lady that doesn’t think China had anything to do with the outbreak.
 
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#494
#494
bamawriter said:
I don't think your example fits your argument. If the lab leak happened (and at this point, I'd have to see some kind of compelling evidence to convince me it didn't), then the carelessness of the lab staff is the original cause of the pandemic. The initial inaction and obfuscation of the Chinese government prevented any attempt at containing the virus before it became a pandemic. It is accurate, in every meaningful way, to say that the Chinese are responsible for this global pandemic.

However, that does not excuse any individual anywhere in the world from failing to exercise personal responsibility. It's not like the pandemic is a secret. It hasn't been since late 2019. If you get sick and/or die from this virus, the Chinese are not going to be compensating you or your loved ones.
Click to expand...

I'm making the general point that you cannot move (without further argument) from the generic claim that "If A hadn't done B, then C wouldn't have happened," to the claim "It is A's fault that C." That's what the Dahmer example shows.
 
#495
#495
Carl Pickens said:
Sure it can, but the dog escaped from your yard and killed the neighbor…. It’s your fault the neighbor is dead. You failed to properly secure your dog…. Doesn’t matter if he can be caught and put back in the yard….. the Chinese allowed the virus out and caused the pandemic …. Period. The rest is semantics
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I’ll agree that this reasoning applies to 100% of the people who got sick last year and some of the people who got sick this year.

At this point, the risk is known and people who fail to take reasonable precautions share some responsibility for what befalls them.
 
#496
#496
evillawyer said:
I'm making the general point that you cannot move (without further argument) from the generic claim that "If A hadn't done B, then C wouldn't have happened," to the claim "It is A's fault that C." That's what the Dahmer example shows.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

You're right in that the fact of a serial killer's birth does not make the parent's responsible for the murders. Human beings have personal responsibility for their own actions.

However, this virus is not a human being. Human beings were careless with it and allowed it to escape, and other human beings failed to take appropriate steps to contain it. The Chinese are not Dahmer's parents in your example, they are Dahmer.
 
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#497
#497
bamawriter said:
I disagree.

You're right in that the fact of a serial killer's birth does not make the parent's responsible for the murders. Human beings have personal responsibility for their own actions.

However, this virus is not a human being. Human beings were careless with it and allowed it to escape, and other human beings failed to take appropriate steps to contain it. The Chinese are not Dahmer's parents in your example, they are Dahmer.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding. We have additional, intervening causes here, which makes my point.
 
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