The Great Labor Force Debate

[ClearwaterVol]

So you also believe that all jobs are “skilled labor” and that unskilled labor doesn’t exist within the business/economic world?

No, I understand Donjo doesn't like the distinction because as I said prior you look down upon people you deem as unskilled and feel they don't deserve to earn a living wage because they are teens, convicts and the elderly. I do believe that jobs are considered skilled and unskilled, but I was asking where that line was.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

A position can have value while the actual person employed does not based on the skill/knowledge/experience required. More easily replaced = less value/skill.

Well, easily replaced is kind of misleading. Yeah, you can always fill a spot in these jobs (at least that was true before the pandemic) , but you also have a lot of attrition and turnover. So yeah, you have a vast labor pool, but not many good long term or productive candidates.

 

[NCFisher]

Yeah, I am not sure you're correct. Get rid of the CNAs and watch the nurses walk. Then the doctors. The only ones left would be those skilled administrators.

Means nothing more than RNs have become more advanced or broadly specialized positions participating in some roles that only doctors performed prior. It is an efficiency to offload lesser skilled tasks to lesser skilled personnel who are compensated less. Through THAT lens, CNAs are necessary members of the org chart, but do nothing that can't be appropriated by a more 'skilled' position if need arises. It's not controversial that skilled positions can readily task downwards while the opposite isn't true.

Personally, if I have a medical emergency I always demand a sign guy attend to my gushing aorta.

 

[Rickyvol77]

No, I understand Donjo doesn't like the distinction because as I said prior you look down upon people you deem as unskilled and feel they don't deserve to earn a living wage because they are teens, convicts and the elderly. I do believe that jobs are considered skilled and unskilled, but I was asking where that line was.

“Living wage” is bS based on other factors such as location, family size, background etc.
People are paid what their market value is based on the type of labor they do and their skill set. It has nothing to do with “looking down on anyone”. That’s liberal feelz BS.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yeah right. You backtracked so many times you started embarrassing yourself. Like our football team embarrassed themselves when they decided not to play Army and their complex and innovative offense.

Really? I remember when that debate was raging and I didn't get a chance to find out the reasoning behind the cancellation. That's funny.

 

[Rickyvol77]

Means nothing more than RNs have become more advanced or broadly specialized positions participating in some roles that only doctors performed prior. It is an efficiency to offload lesser skilled tasks to lesser skilled personnel who are compensated less. Through THAT lens, CNAs are necessary members of the org chart, but do nothing that can't be appropriated by a more 'skilled' position if need arises. It's not controversial that skilled positions can readily task downwards while the opposite isn't true.

Personally, if I have a medical emergency I always demand a sign guy attend to my gushing aorta.

Sign guy may be the most skilled person in the world

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Means nothing more than RNs have become more advanced or broadly specialized positions participating in some roles that only doctors performed prior. It is an efficiency to offload lesser skilled tasks to lesser skilled personnel who are compensated less. Through THAT lens, CNAs are necessary members of the org chart, but do nothing that can't be appropriated by a more 'skilled' position if need arises. It's not controversial that skilled positions can readily task downwards while the opposite isn't true.

Personally, if I have a medical emergency I always demand a sign guy attend to my gushing aorta.

A cop is just about as useful in that situation.

An RN is able to task down. The question is are they willing.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Well, easily replaced is kind of misleading. Yeah, you can always fill a spot in these jobs (at least that was true before the pandemic) , but you also have a lot of attrition and turnover. So yeah, you have a vast labor pool, but not many good long term or productive candidates.

Not to mention turnover costs. In the cotton warehouse example I mentioned previously, it took a good two-three months to get a new forklift driver up to an acceptable level of skill and really about six months to be totally productive. Turnover cost is expensive for a lot of positions on the skill scale.

 

[DonjoVol]

Really? I remember when that debate was raging and I didn't get a chance to find out the reasoning behind the cancellation. That's funny.

That was also my first interaction with Mr VP Ricky on here. He really knows how to make a good use of company time.

 

[C-south]

'Unskilled' broadly refers to low-skilled, 'skills' readily found in the population or acquired with ease; if you emerged from elementary school equipped for it, probably 'unskilled'. Prevalence and demand for a 'skill' determines the value.

Nearly any functional human being can make change and cashier; the requirement is 3rd grade math while not drooling on the frozen peas. A CCNA designation no longer commands the wage it did ten years ago, but still pays better than cashiering and is, relatively, a skilled position.

Why is this a thread?

Somebody thinks hitting a button and dropping fries, topping off a water, cleaning dirty dishes off a table, etc are skilled jobs comparable to a surgeon, SAP analyst, CNC operator, or someone who drives a semi.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Underpaid is relative to the market. No one is paying a janitor $50/hr even if they are the best most hard working janitor in the county. Doesn’t mean they aren’t important but they are unskilled labor and not worth that kind of cost. And businesses can make whatever policy they see fit even if you disagree with them, you have no right to a job there. You are free to go elsewhere if you choose

I'm not, nor do I think @DonjoVol is advocating paying a janitor $50/hr. See this is what you typically do. You take an argument and drag it to the most ridiculous extreme. Saying someone is underpaid is not saying that they need to be they need to be paid as you are suggesting. All that is being said is that there are some (or really far too many) instances where these people are underpaid... that's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That could mean that some $12/hr employees maybe should be getting $18‐20/hr... or whatever. Just throwing that out as an example.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Jesus you went to a public school didn’t you? Let me guess, in a smaller rural county?

My gawd you are a condescending . Thank goodness you don't have a badge and a gun anymore.

 

[Rickyvol77]

A cop is just about as useful in that situation.

An RN is able to task down. The question is are they willing.

I’ve seen police handle many different complex type situations from fires to shootings to medical emergencies to wrecks to child abuse to drownings to shootings to deescalation mentally Ill people to helping get cats out of trees for kids to administering narcan to OD to terrorist attacks.

Now not all police are this handy based on their training and department but I’d put the variety in their skill set to society up against say, a legal clerk or sign guy or CNA any day of the week.

And that’s not “looking down” on anyone to say that. I don’t expect a doctor to apprehend a bank robber and I don’t expect a lawyer to sweep my office floor

 

[Rickyvol77]

That was also my first interaction with Mr VP Ricky on here. He really knows how to make a good use of company time.

I’ll be out at a local establishment watching UT play while drinking with coworkers and friends. I’ll be thinking about all the skill involved of bringing my drinks to me as I tip them well today!

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Now this is an interesting statement. The difference in skill levels between Harris and Cheney could be described in light years.

I often use Dick Cheney as an example of someone who was very effective and highly competent. People (and inferring from the quote, you are among them) seem to conflate likability with competence. I would not be surprised that in person, Kamala may very well be more likable than Cheney. But I if want someone to prepare a response to a national emergency, I'm going with Dick Cheney every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I am not sure Kamala could organize a bake sale. Dick Cheney would have the 2nd largest bakery in the US at the end of three months.

When he said "worse" than Kamala or Cheney, I don't think he was referring to their skill as much as he was comparing their attitudes and aloofness towards others with Ricky.

 

[GroverCleveland]

I'm not, nor do I think @DonjoVol is advocating paying a janitor $50/hr. See this is what you typically do. You take an argument and drag it to the most ridiculous extreme. Saying someone is underpaid is not saying that they need to be they need to be paid as you are suggesting. All that is being said is that there are some (or really far too many) instances where these people are underpaid... that's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That could mean that some $12/hr employees maybe should be getting $18‐20/hr... or whatever. Just throwing that out as an example.

If the market says they should, they would be. The current labor market is pushing up wages in many of what are historically considered unskilled jobs. McDonalds around us are advertising $11/hour for example.

If the argument is in favor of a government mandated "minimum wage," I'm totally against it for a lot of reasons.

 

[Rickyvol77]

I'm not, nor do I think @DonjoVol is advocating paying a janitor $50/hr. See this is what you typically do. You take an argument and drag it to the most ridiculous extreme. Saying someone is underpaid is not saying that they need to be they need to be paid as you are suggesting. All that is being said is that there are some (or really far too many) instances where these people are underpaid... that's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That could mean that some $12/hr employees maybe should be getting $18‐20/hr... or whatever. Just throwing that out as an example.

hello pot this is kettle. You are the poster who takes things to extreme all the time. Remember when you said police were coming to force vaccines in your arm or take your guns?

 

[Rickyvol77]

My gawd you are a condescending POS. Thank goodness you don't have a badge and a gun anymore.

I do have a badge and gun

 

[DonjoVol]

No, I understand Donjo doesn't like the distinction because as I said prior you look down upon people you deem as unskilled and feel they don't deserve to earn a living wage because they are teens, convicts and the elderly. I do believe that jobs are considered skilled and unskilled, but I was asking where that line was.

Keep in mind this all started months ago when I simply said some jobs should be paid more. A few people like Ricky went ballistic just over that comment. Then this led to a skilled and unskilled debate. It's funny how they consider all these restaurant workers or people at Walmart unskilled but they have no problem to continue frequenting these places on a regular basis. My opinion is if jobs like that are needed that much then yes they are skilled jobs. And these people continue to prove it by going to these places. Many of them will today.

Ricky also has a personal issue with me and Ras for example because we won't go along with his worldview. So instead of acting like the VP in Healthcare that he is and being respectful he has resorted to acting like a middle school kid throwing around insults. And now this supposed VP in healthcare is insulting CNAs. No VP in healthcare would resort to that type of behavior.

 

[Rickyvol77]

I'm not, nor do I think @DonjoVol is advocating paying a janitor $50/hr. See this is what you typically do. You take an argument and drag it to the most ridiculous extreme. Saying someone is underpaid is not saying that they need to be they need to be paid as you are suggesting. All that is being said is that there are some (or really far too many) instances where these people are underpaid... that's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That could mean that some $12/hr employees maybe should be getting $18‐20/hr... or whatever. Just throwing that out as an example.

Also the skilled vs unskilled can be summed up by numbers too.

In Knoxville if I’m looking to hire a sign twirling guy, I have a pool of nearly 1,000,000 candidates because the requirements and skill set and education are basically nil. Hell a dog could do it

If it’s a janitor, 50,000 people to choose from
If a CNA - 20,000
A RN - 5,000
A family doctor - 2,000
A functioning VP level position - 500
A spinal surgeon - 50
A brain surgeon - 20

Thus some of the positions will be paid much higher and more valuable. It doesn’t mean sign guy is “looked down upon”. It’s basic business and economics

 

[DonjoVol]

Somebody thinks hitting a button and dropping fries, topping off a water, cleaning dirty dishes off a table, etc are skilled jobs comparable to a surgeon, SAP analyst, CNC operator, or someone who drives a semi.

You people need to learn to read. I said those jobs are skilled also. When people stop visiting restaurants on a regular basis like they do then I might change my mind.

For people on this board who claim to be highly skilled many lack basic reading comprehension skills.

 

[Sandman 423]

Keep in mind this all started months ago when I simply said some jobs should be paid more. A few people like Ricky went ballistic just over that comment. Then this led to a skilled and unskilled debate. It's funny how they consider all these restaurant workers or people at Walmart unskilled but they have no problem to continue frequenting these places on a regular basis. My opinion is if jobs like that are needed that much then yes they are skilled jobs. And these people continue to prove it by going to these places. Many of them will today.

Ricky also has a personal issue with me and Ras for example because we won't go along with his worldview. So instead of acting like the VP in Healthcare that he is and being respectful he has resorted to acting like a middle school kid throwing around insults. And now this supposed VP in healthcare is insulting CNAs. No VP in healthcare would resort to that type of behavior.

Why does it matter if someone's job is classified as unskilled ? Am I missing something?

 

[NCFisher]

GED and 22 weeks. Where is the division for skilled vs. unskilled? How many weeks of training does it take to become skilled labor? Is the person that does your nails considered skilled labor?

Supply of, and demand or necessity for, the skill. I've explained unskilled is a term used for low-skilled labor, why semantically belabor it? In practicality, even Marxists understand this but would force a level, artificial worth - wage or benefits - upon the proles but not the technocrats.

They're skilled at doing nails, man; every person alive will never have a French pedi emergency.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If the market says they should, they would be. The current labor market is pushing up wages in many of what are historically considered unskilled jobs. McDonalds around us are advertising $11/hour for example.

If the argument is in favor of a government mandated "minimum wage," I'm totally against it for a lot of reasons.

Nothing you said in this post is anything I disagree with.

All I said is that most of these people are underpaid. I'm fully aware of market dynamics and how labor is priced. What you may not consider or want to acknowledge is that maybe the labor market has been distorted such that wages have not kept pace with inflation.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

hello pot this is kettle. You are the poster who takes things to extreme all the time. Remember when you said police were coming to force vaccines in your arm or take your guns?

It is still within the realm of possibility. May not happen right now, but for a period of time last year, nothing was off the table.