The Thread Where People Argue About Kneeling in the NFL (merged)

[tumscalcium]

They aren't protesting the flag or the anthem. They're protesting the perceived social injustice of blacks by law enforcement. They are using the anthem time as a platform for the attention.

i.e. no attention if they kneel during the halftime show.

Exactly. Nothing. So why protest the flag and the anthem?

Whether they SAY they’re protesting the flag and anthem doesn’t matter. They ARE protesting the flag and anthem. Their actions aren’t matching their words.

This is where their alleged message gets muddled and why more and more people lose respect for the idiots.

 

[RikidyBones]

They aren't protesting the flag or the anthem. They're protesting the perceived social injustice of blacks by law enforcement. They are using the anthem time as a platform for the attention.

i.e. no attention if they kneel during the halftime show.

Perceived is another reason people dont respect it

In 2017, there were 68 unarmed police fatalities out of 987 fatalities, per Washington Post, which is just under 7%.

Police fatally shot 987 people last year, or two dozen more than they killed in 2016, according to an ongoing Washington Post database project that tracks the fatal shootings.

I haven't checked this number but per live pd, there is an arrest every 2.5 seconds. Let's assume this is accurate. So doing the math, that means there are 12,614,400 action taken confrontations per year. Which also means that only 0.0000053907% of all confrontations end up in an unarmed death.

Please note:
Not all unarmed deaths are bad shootings.
Not all confrontations, even the aggressive ones, end up in an arrest.
Not all brutality cases end up in a death but I haven't been able to find legit numbers on that. The protest has also been defined around the DEATH of unarmed black men.
Which brings me to my next note, not all 68 are black.

So when looking at this, the police issues aren't very convincing. That isnt to say more hands on training is a bad thing. It's always good to try to grow. I know Kaepernick at a later date mentioned incarceration injustices but it hasn't been the focus.

 

[tumscalcium]

Exactly. Nothing. So why protest the flag and the anthem?

Whether they SAY they’re protesting the flag and anthem doesn’t matter. They ARE protesting the flag and anthem. Their actions aren’t matching their words.

This is where their alleged message gets muddled and why more and more people lose respect for the idiots.

Oops

 

[Septic]

Exactly. Nothing. So why protest the flag and the anthem?

Whether they SAY they’re protesting the flag and anthem doesn’t matter. They ARE protesting the flag and anthem. Their actions aren’t matching their words.

This is where their alleged message gets muddled and why more and more people lose respect for the idiots.

They are protesting DURING the flag and anthem, it has nothing to do with the flag or the anthem.

The timing is a platform for attention..................... and it's working.

 

[Septic]

Perceived is another reason people dont respect it

In 2017, there were 68 unarmed police fatalities out of 987 fatalities, per Washington Post, which is just under 7%.




I haven't checked this number but per live pd, there is an arrest every 2.5 seconds. Let's assume this is accurate. So doing the math, that means there are 12,614,400 action taken confrontations per year. Which also means that only 0.0000053907% of all confrontations end up in an unarmed death.

Please note:
Not all unarmed deaths are bad shootings.
Not all confrontations, even the aggressive ones, end up in an arrest.
Not all brutality cases end up in a death but I haven't been able to find legit numbers on that. The protest has also been defined around the DEATH of unarmed black men.
Which brings me to my next note, not all 68 are black.

So when looking at this, the police issues aren't very convincing. That isnt to say more hands on training is a bad thing. It's always good to try to grow. I know Kaepernick at a later date mentioned incarceration injustices but it hasn't been the focus.

Perception is a reality for some people irrespective of facts.

The reasoning so many people are mad about this is a perfect example of this, just look at this thread.

 

[tumscalcium]

They are protesting DURING the flag and anthem, it has nothing to do with the flag or the anthem.

The timing is a platform for attention..................... and it's working.

Exactly! What’s so hard to understand about that? That’s why hardly anyone knows their message or care. They’re protesting the flag and anthem. Whether you like it or not that’s what they’re choosing to protest.

Oh they’ve gotten attention. And it’s not going well for them. . Especially when people look at he facts of their alleged message.

 

[Septic]

Exactly! What’s so hard to understand about that? That’s why hardly anyone knows their message or care. They’re protesting the flag and anthem.

Oh they’ve gotten attention. And it’s not going well for them.

Lots of people know there message and care, just because you don't isn't relevant.

Not going well for them? The discussion is being had all over America, which is what they want. This thread is evidence of that.

It's not going well for them because it's being used as a wedge issue to divide. The insistence that this has something to do with patriotism when it does not is evidence of that.

 

[RikidyBones]

Perception is a reality for some people irrespective of facts.

The reasoning so many people are mad about this is a perfect example of this, just look at this thread.

Well with both issues actual facts are ignored.

The protest is occurring specifically during the anthem. The protest does not have data supporting it as a systematic racial issue, let alone an issue overall. Can that number be lowered? Sure. and I hope that is the goal.

 

[tumscalcium]

Lots of people know there message and care, just because you don't isn't relevant.

Not going well for them? The discussion is being had all over America, which is what they want. This thread is evidence of that.

It's not going well for them because it's being used as a wedge issue to divide. The insistence that this has something to do with patriotism when it does not is evidence of that.

Lots care. A lot more don’t.

What discussion is being had?

Exactly. THEY have chose to divide.

 

[RikidyBones]

Lots of people know there message and care, just because you don't isn't relevant.

Not going well for them? The discussion is being had all over America, which is what they want. This thread is evidence of that.

It's not going well for them because it's being used as a wedge issue to divide. The insistence that this has something to do with patriotism when it does not is evidence of that.

if it's working and we are having the discussion... what are they protesting now?

Edit: What I mean by that is the protest itself was to get the conversation going. If goiit's going, why continue to do something that turns people off? Seems counter productive.

 

[Septic]

Lots care. A lot more don’t.

I can't speak to your personal beliefs.

What discussion is being had?

This one.

Exactly. THEY have chose to divide.

There's only one side who refuses to acknowledge that it's not about patriotism and is about the platform. You've bought the "disrespect" narrative because you don't like their message of social injustice.

 

[Septic]

if it's working and we are having the discussion... what are they protesting now?

Edit: What I mean by that is the protest itself was to get the conversation going. If goiit's going, why continue to do something that turns people off? Seems counter productive.

I don't know man. I don't necessarily agree with how they are going about it but I understand the whats and whys and it's hard to argue with it getting attention. There's a lot of reasons to be PO'd at the world - this isn't one of them.

 

[tumscalcium]

I can't speak to your personal beliefs.

Most don’t care. You’ve bought in to the muddled message. That’s your problem.

This one.

What one?

There's only one side who refuses to acknowledge that it's not about patriotism and is about the platform. You've bought the "disrespect" narrative because you don't like their message of social injustice.

Are they picketing police stations? No, they’re protesting the flag and the anthem and then telling you they aren’t. Again, what they’re doing doesn’t match what they’re saying.
What social injustices? If they cared they’d be all up on the black community killing each other. But they’re not.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Consistent and I agree.

Perhaps consistent and wrong.

Youtube has legal terms and agreements that don't appear to have been violated by AJ just as the NFL has terms and agreements that Kaepernick did not appear to violate.

Also, just as you have multiple social media sites that appear to be colluding with one another to not offer a serve to AJ, you appear to have collusion among the league owners with regards to hiring Kaepernick. Both instances would make for interesting anti-trust cases.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It is personal for me. I have two on active duty right now with one of them on foreign soil.

I view it as disrespect because of the reason the anthem is played and the flag is the center of attention during the anthem.

Anyone has every right to protest it, but I have every right to take it as disrespect to our country and my sons.

You do know that the flag is not just for the military, correct?

Also, the players are not protesting and have no grievances with the soldiers. So to suggest that they are showing the soldiers disrespect is totally false. Showing disrespect to the soldiers would be to send them off to foreign soils to fight for corporate interests or to advance some other strategic goal that has no benefit or importance to the average American. That is the most severe and truest form of disrespect to the soldiers... not what happens 2 minutes before a Sunday kickoff.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Most don’t care. You’ve bought in to the muddled message. That’s your problem.



What one?


Are they picketing police stations? No, they’re protesting the flag and the anthem and then telling you they aren’t. Again, what they’re doing doesn’t match what they’re saying.
What social injustices? If they cared they’d be all up on the black community killing each other. But they’re not.

I love your last point. Tell them what cause they should take up. You're an arrogant a$$ for suggesting what cause they should support.

They are protesting a percieved social injustice in america and this is the time when they can do so and receive the most publicity. People like you are saying, "You shouldn't protest that. You should protest this and you should do it in a way that I don't have to see it."

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I understand and it wouldn't be the way I would choose to protest, but I support their right to do so and try not to take offense. The protest has nothing to do with the military and it is unfortunate that it's been framed that way.

It has been framed that way be design.

They want us focusing on these "symbols" rather than focusing on real issues that are actually affecting our day to day lives.

 

[RikidyBones]

Perhaps consistent and wrong.

Youtube has legal terms and agreements that don't appear to have been violated by AJ just as the NFL has terms and agreements that Kaepernick did not appear to violate.

Also, just as you have multiple social media sites that appear to be colluding with one another to not offer a serve to AJ, you appear to have collusion among the league owners with regards to hiring Kaepernick. Both instances would make for interesting anti-trust cases.

Collusion? Owners not wanting that circus in their locker room is not enough to say they are colluding. Kaep is bad for business. This whole ordeal is bad for business on an issue the NFL cannot control nor do they have any influence in said issues. Theres nothing but conjecture to even entertain the idea of collusion without common business sense taking over.

Social media may fall into new litigation that will reclassify them and they will fall into some sort of free speech ordeal with how influential it has become in the unchartered territory that is the internet. Although as it stands, they are a private business and can do whatever they want.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If the protesters didn’t want it tied to the military then they should have found something else to demonstrate aginst.
Almost nobody alive thinks of the police when they see the flag or hear the anthem.

Pavlovian response that we have been conditioned to believe that the flag = the military.

The flag (originally) was just a symbol of our country and what it stood for (life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, the Constitution)... no more, no less.

But especially since 9/11, it has transformed into a symbol of our military as they fight the war on terror to protect our freedoms.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

I don't know man. I don't necessarily agree with how they are going about it but I understand the whats and whys and it's hard to argue with it getting attention. There's a lot of reasons to be PO'd at the world - this isn't one of them.

Where is the attention going? It seems to me it’s just a circle jerk.

Players kneel to bring attention to perceived social injustice/police brutality. But the “attention” created is from two sides arguing over whether its their right, respectful, etc. Few of any people are actually discussing the reason behind the act. Other than the NFL throwing token money at some social causes, what’s changed?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Thanks for writing this......I think I understand now. Those that kneel or abide kneeling during the anthem never knew why they were standing. Standing never had any meaning for them.

You may have put your finger on to something. Very profound statement you just made right there.

 

[T-TownVol]

You do know that the flag is not just for the military, correct?

Also, the players are not protesting and have no grievances with the soldiers. So to suggest that they are showing the soldiers disrespect is totally false. Showing disrespect to the soldiers would be to send them off to foreign soils to fight for corporate interests or to advance some other strategic goal that has no benefit or importance to the average American. That is the most severe and truest form of disrespect to the soldiers... not what happens 2 minutes before a Sunday kickoff.

A soldier presenting the colors while the anthem is being played. That is what they are disrespecting. They/you have every right to be that person, but don't try to justify being that person.

 

[RikidyBones]

I love your last point. Tell them what cause they should take up. You're an arrogant a$$ for suggesting what cause they should support.

They are protesting a percieved social injustice in america and this is the time when they can do so and receive the most publicity. People like you are saying, "You shouldn't protest that. You should protest this and you should do it in a way that I don't have to see it."

Ok so I have a cause I want the world to talk about: The commercialization of the American university. I am going to overrun the Atlanta MLK parade by having a large number of people stop the parade and turn their back on it. Thoughts on how my protest will be perceived?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What does protesting the flag and anthem have to do with police?

What does it have to do with the military?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I haven't checked this number but per live pd, there is an arrest every 2.5 seconds. Let's assume this is accurate. So doing the math, that means there are 12,614,400 action taken confrontations per year. Which also means that only 0.0000053907% of all confrontations end up in an unarmed death.

Those stats are what draws my attention. How many of those are for reefer or minor traffic infractions?