The Thread Where People Argue About Kneeling in the NFL (merged)

[n_huffhines]

And to answer the question about disliking Kanter

I didn't like him for a while because I was a Jazz fan, who he disgraced. I did get over it and forgave him, especially when he had family problems. Now I dislike him again because of how petty and silly he's been with Lebron and the NBA. It's disappointing and hypocritical. The NBA made him a rich man. Lebron made him a rich man, and this is an undeniable fact. He criticizes Lebron for making $ off Nike while he himself is making $ off of Nike. You can't make this **** up. He's that big of a hypocrite, and now he's trying to minimize oppression in America, when we need to be bringing it to light so we can get rid of it.

 

[05_never_again]

Ultimately, where Kap erred is that he had a poorly thought out method of protest. It happens all the time to protest movements of all stripes. It should have been eminently foreseeable that kneeling during the national anthem, for almost any reason, would be seen as disrespectful and unpatriotic by a lot of people. Right off the bat, it clouded the message he was trying to get across and he kind of shot himself in the foot. It isn't immediately clear what kneeling during the national anthem has to do with policy brutality. When he doubled down with the cops as pigs socks, support for Castro, NFL owners are like slave owners, etc., he totally lost control of his narrative. It's kind of like when people protesting something go into the street and block an intersection. Even people who are sympathetic to whatever the protestors are protesting kind of check out at that point.

If he did something that more acutely drew attention to these incidents of police brutality (talking about them during press conferences, etc.), it still would have been controversial, but far less of a firestorm than it was.

 

[Ttucke11]

Then you don't know enough about what you're talking about. His career has been completely irrelevant. He spent, what? 3 years in Utah where he admitted he wasn't even trying? Cool. Then he went to OKC to seal his fate as a bench player. Then he became a journeyman. Combine everything he's done and it doesn't equate to a SB appearance. When CK had good teams, he played well. He was 4-2 in the playoffs and then played for garbage teams the rest of his career.

The least important part of my post, but okay. The losing record QB who got benched for Blaine Gabbert. Maybe getting carried to a SB was better than Kanters whole career. But he was still a fringe starter/good backup with an ego like he was Tom Brady.

 

[n_huffhines]

The least important part of my post, but okay. The losing record QB who got benched for Blaine Gabbert. Maybe getting carried to a SB was better than Kanters whole career. But he was still a fringe starter/good backup with an ego like he was Tom Brady.

He didn't have a losing record when he got benched, and he lost the job because he got injured. That's why he had season-ending surgery, and then had two other operations that offseason, which is why he didn't win back the starting position at the beginning of 2016. When he won it back, he was CLEARLY better than Blaine Gabbert (who is still in the league).

 

[Ttucke11]

Ultimately, where Kap erred is that he had a poorly thought out method of protest. It happens all the time to protest movements of all stripes. It should have been eminently foreseeable that kneeling during the national anthem, for almost any reason, would be seen as disrespectful and unpatriotic by a lot of people. Right off the bat, it clouded the message he was trying to get across and he kind of shot himself in the foot. It isn't immediately clear what kneeling during the national anthem has to do with policy brutality. When he doubled down with the cops as pigs socks, support for Castro, NFL owners are like slave owners, etc., he totally lost control of his narrative. It's kind of like when people protesting something go into the street and block an intersection. Even people who are sympathetic to whatever the protestors are protesting kind of check out at that point.

If he did something that more acutely drew attention to these incidents of police brutality (talking about them during press conferences, etc.), it still would have been controversial, but far less of a firestorm than it was.

He couldn't talk about them during press conferences because he had no idea what he was ever talking about in the first place. The dude is extremely ignorant/possibly just stupid.

 

[Ttucke11]

He didn't have a losing record when he got benched, and he lost the job because he got injured. That's why he had season-ending surgery, and then had two other operations that offseason, which is why he didn't win back the starting position at the beginning of 2016. When he won it back, he was CLEARLY better than Blaine Gabbert (who is still in the league).

He was the worst quarterback in the league in 2015. He had a losing record in both 2015 (when benched) and 2016 (also benched). He also has a career losing record. Are you propping up Gabbert now? Talk about being completely irrelevant.

 

[n_huffhines]

He was the worst quarterback in the league in 2015. He had a losing record in both 2015 (when benched) and 2016 (also benched). He also has a career losing record. Are you propping up Gabbert now? Talk about being completely irrelevant.

What are you basing this on? He had maybe the worst situation in the whole league and he almost the exact same QBR as Ryan Tannehill that year, and they are a year apart in age. Guess how much $ Tanneyhill is making these days? He had a higher QBR than Derek Carr. Higher than a future SB MVP (just 2 years younger). He also had a higher QBR than, you guessed it, Blaine Gabbert. It was nowhere near time to give up on Kaepernick. This is the part of the career where everybody says "You put him in the right situation and it will probably work."

2015 NFL Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[05_never_again]

He couldn't talk about them during press conferences because he had no idea what he was ever talking about in the first place. The dude is extremely ignorant/possibly just stupid.

Potentially. Could have been why he opted for the kneeling. He either doesn't know a whole lot outside of left-wing narratives about it, or he's not very good at articulating his thoughts.

Remember, at first he actually didn't even kneel - he remained on the bench, sitting during the anthem, I guess to not even acknowledge it. He changed his mind to kneeling after talking with a soldier, who told him that sitting during the anthem might be misinterpreted.

 

[Ttucke11]

What are you basing this on? He had maybe the worst situation in the whole league and he almost the exact same QBR as Ryan Tannehill that year, and they are a year apart in age. Guess how much $ Tanneyhill is making these days? He had a higher QBR than Derek Carr. Higher than a future SB MVP (just 2 years younger). He also had a higher QBR than, you guessed it, Blaine Gabbert. It was nowhere near time to give up on Kaepernick. This is the part of the career where everybody says "You put him in the right situation and it will probably work."

2015 NFL Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Sorry 3rd or 4th worst quarterback in the league. He was better than Ryan Mallett, Nick Foles, and Sam Bradford. Killer's row.

And some wanted to give him another chance, but he chose to be a martyr instead.

 

[n_huffhines]

Sorry 3rd or 4th worst quarterback in the league. He was better than Ryan Mallett, Nick Foles, and Sam Bradford. Killer's row.

And then the 60 guys who aren't on the list...

Bradford got two more contracts after that, both over $18m/yr. Foles won a SB. You're making my point for me.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

The NFL doesn't care about the off field stuff if you can help them win. Tyreke Hill, Joe Mixon, Randy Gregory, Kareem Hunt, Deshaun Watson, Big Ben, Aldon Smith, PacMan Jones all received multiple chances. Heck, Aaron Hernandez even got drafted. Eric Reid and Malcolm Jenkins did same thing as CK but they got shots. It's because the talent outweighed the distractions.

Ray Rice and CK didn't get another chance. Talent didn't outweigh the distractions. If CK was still a Top 15-20 QB, he would have got more shots...

 

[hog88]

The NFL doesn't care about the off field stuff if you can help them win. Tyreke Hill, Randy Gregory, Kareem Hunt, Deshaun Watson, Big Ben, Aldon Smith, PacMan Jones all received multiple chances. Heck, Aaron Hernandez even got drafted. Eric Reid and Malcolm Jenkins did same thing as CK but he got shots. It's because the talent outweighed the distractions.

Ray Rice and CK didn't get another chance. Talent didn't outweigh the distractions. If CK was still a Top 15-20 QB, he would have got more shots...

CK is a good lesson for everyone, if you are a marginal employee it’s best to keep your head down and mouth shut when you show up to work.

 

[05_never_again]

CK is a good lesson for everyone, if you are a marginal employee it’s best to keep your head down and mouth shut when you show up to work.

You never want to be the nail that sticks up when the bossman periodically walks around with a hammer in his hand.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

CK is a good lesson for everyone, if you are a marginal employee it’s best to keep your head down and mouth shut when you show up to work.

Watson, Vick, Big Ben all got multiple shots. Not because they were good people but because they were still Top 20 QBs. If CK was as good as he was before teams figured him and Harbaugh out, he would still be starting today...

 

[n_huffhines]

The NFL doesn't care about the off field stuff if you can help them win. Tyreke Hill, Joe Mixon, Randy Gregory, Kareem Hunt, Deshaun Watson, Big Ben, Aldon Smith, PacMan Jones all received multiple chances. Heck, Aaron Hernandez even got drafted. Eric Reid and Malcolm Jenkins did same thing as CK but they got shots. It's because the talent outweighed the distractions.

Ray Rice and CK didn't get another chance. Talent didn't outweigh the distractions. If CK was still a Top 15-20 QB, he would have got more shots...

The Broncos offered him another chance. He didn't take it.

 

[615vols]

And to answer the question about disliking Kanter

I didn't like him for a while because I was a Jazz fan, who he disgraced. I did get over it and forgave him, especially when he had family problems. Now I dislike him again because of how petty and silly he's been with Lebron and the NBA. It's disappointing and hypocritical. The NBA made him a rich man. Lebron made him a rich man, and this is an undeniable fact. He criticizes Lebron for making $ off Nike while he himself is making $ off of Nike. You can't make this **** up. He's that big of a hypocrite, and now he's trying to minimize oppression in America, when we need to be bringing it to light so we can get rid of it.

Don’t know who kanter is, I’ll take your word on him being a hypocrite. But are you saying kapernick isn’t a hypocrite? The guy who cries about oppression, mistreatment, human rights, but runs around in Che Guevara shirts and socks depicting officers as pigs? The guy isn’t some noble dude, he’s a fu***** moron.

 

[n_huffhines]

Watson, Vick, Big Ben all got multiple shots. Not because they were good people but because they were still Top 20 QBs. If CK was as good as he was before teams figured him and Harbaugh out, he would still be starting today...

Teams didn't figure them out. The system changed and it wasn't a good system for CK. Greg Roman showed us all what Kaep can be, and then he left. So anybody running anything similar to Roman (or capable of running it) should've been all over Kaep.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

The Broncos offered him another chance. He didn't take it.

I think the Broncos offered Kap after he asked for a trade in early 2016 after Chip Kelly was hired. He didn't start protests until a few months later..

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Teams didn't figure them out. The system changed and it wasn't a good system for CK. Greg Roman showed us all what Kaep can be, and then he left. So anybody running anything similar to Roman (or capable of running it) should've been all over Kaep. Kaep most definitely should have been the Ravens 2nd string, at the very least.

Yes, Kap was a Top 60 quarterback for sure but 32 NFL teams decided he wasn't worth the distraction anymore. It's the same reason Rice wasn't resigned...

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

With all this being said Kap >Kanter as a player...

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Teams didn't figure them out. The system changed and it wasn't a good system for CK. Greg Roman showed us all what Kaep can be, and then he left. So anybody running anything similar to Roman (or capable of running it) should've been all over Kaep.

Kap regressed from 12 and 13 to 14...He was still Top 15ish QB in 14 still.

15 and 16 - Not so much

 

[n_huffhines]

Yes, Kap was a Top 60 quarterback for sure but 32 NFL teams decided he wasn't worth the distraction anymore. It's the same reason Rice wasn't resigned...

I disagree with your conclusion. The NFL wasn't afraid of losing $ with Ray Rice, so I agree it probably was the distraction factor. I think the NFL was definitely worried they would lose $ over Kaep, and that is the reason he was blackballed. I mean, if it's all about winning and you're a decent team but desperately need a QB, why wouldn't you roll the dice on Kaep? That's what the Broncos were trying to do. They lost anyway without him, so with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been a good gamble.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Here's a question for today, would have things ended up different for CK if Hillary won in 2016?

 

[n_huffhines]

Kap regressed from 12 and 13 to 14...He was still Top 15ish QB in 14 still.

15 and 16 - Not so much

You think he was better in 2012 than he was in 2013?

In 2014, Boldin and Davis were starting to wash out. So yeah, his stats are slightly worse, but his team was a lot worse.

Kaep isn't the type of QB who makes a bad team good. He's not the type of QB that will bring you back from a 21-pt deficit. But he is exactly the kind of QB you want with a run game and a defense. The RPO threat was real. Alex Smith QB'd the 8th ranked running game in 2011 with a 28 YO Frank Gore. CK QB'd the 3rd ranked running game in 2013 with a 30 YO Frank Gore and then 4th in 2014 with a 31 YO Frank Gore. CK barely gets any of that credit from anybody.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

You think he was better in 2012 than he was in 2013?

In 2014, Boldin and Davis were starting to wash out. So yeah, his stats are slightly worse, but his team was a lot worse.

Kaep isn't the type of QB who makes a bad team good. He's not the type of QB that will bring you back from a 21-pt deficit. But he is exactly the kind of QB you want with a run game and a defense. The RPO threat was real. Alex Smith QB'd the 8th ranked running game in 2011 with a 28 YO Frank Gore. CK QB'd the 3rd ranked running game in 2013 with a 30 YO Frank Gore and then 4th in 2014 with a 31 YO Frank Gore. CK barely gets any of that credit from anybody.

Kap is the kind of QB that fits in with the Browns and that means he sucks. Sorry Huff.