There's not a penalty to harsh for PSU!

#102
#102
bamawriter said:
It's completely impossible to establish causation. Maybe recruits wouldn't have wanted to come there in the wake of a child rape arrest in 2001. But it's just as likely, if not more so, that recruits and their parents would have been even more impressed by PSU and Joe Paterno.

If you pay a recruit, there is a direct causal link between your actions and his decision to come to your school. That's impossible to establish in this case.
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Joe Paterno thought that it would affect recruiting back in 2001. Somebody was investigating sandusky that time, and he died. Why do you think it was hidden?
 
#103
#103
GhostVol said:
The response to the competitive advantage argument is that if even ONE recruit had gone to another school because they didn't want to be linked to this cluster**** (no matter how peripherally) then yes, they DID gain a competitive advantage.
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Except they didn't give these people anything to attend the university, which is what the competitive advantage violation is about; it's about they unfairly gave someone something (tangible) in secretive to gain their services, not that their teams could instead have been worse (if they had known X or Y).

(the former has a causal link established; the latter doesn't except just on "supposing"s.....maybe bamawriter worded this part a bit better up above)

Otherwise, it's just playing with if's which would hardly hold up in any sort of deliberation room.
 
#104
#104
Burger said:
Joe Paterno thought that it would affect recruiting back in 2001.
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Which is why PSU should expunge themselves of Paterno's post-coverup accomplishments. But just because Paterno thought it might affect recruiting doesn't mean it did.

Somebody was investigating sandusky that time, and he died. Why do you think it was hidden?
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Actually, the DA who disappeared, and is assumed to be dead (no body was ever found), was not actively investigating Sandusky at the time of his disappearance. He had already declined to press charges over the 1998 incident, and was gone by the time '01 rolled around. Trying to draw a line between his disappearance and Sandusky's continuing behavior is going to be difficult to do.
 
#105
#105
TrueOrange said:
Except they didn't give these people anything to attend the university, which is what the competitive advantage violation is about; it's about they unfairly gave someone something (tangible) in secretive to gain their services, not that their teams could instead have been worse (if they had known X or Y).

(the former has a causal link established; the latter doesn't except just on "supposing"s.....maybe bamawriter worded this part a bit better up above)

Otherwise, it's just playing with if's which would hardly hold up in any sort of deliberation room.
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Look at the actions of the university. Why would you hide something like that?
 
#106
#106
Burger said:
Look at the actions of the university. Why would you hide something like that?
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Given that is appears the decision came from Paterno, one can assume that it was hidden to protect his legacy. He was a year away from becoming the winningest coach of all time, and a child rape scandal might have thrown a wrench in that. And for all I know, Joe might have been trying to protect a man he considered his friend of 30+ years.

None of those are good reasons to cover up child rape. But honestly, is there any good reason to cover up child rape?
 
#107
#107
bamawriter said:
Given that is appears the decision came from Paterno, one can assume that it was hidden to protect his legacy. He was a year away from becoming the winningest coach of all time, and a child rape scandal might have thrown a wrench in that. And for all I know, Joe might have been trying to protect a man he considered his friend of 30+ years.

None of those are good reasons to cover up child rape. But honestly, is there any good reason to cover up child rape?
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That's the point, the gross negligence should also be punished in the NCAA. It was in almost every basic level of the institution. If Paterno's legacy went bye bye, then recruiting would be affected. Paterno admitted to using practices that would of gotten him in huge trouble with the NCAA before he kicked the bucket. He would be punished for what he did.
 
#108
#108
bamawriter said:
Yes I would.

But, I would hope that others would choose to deal with Penn State accordingly. Such shamelessness on PSU's part reflects badly on anyone associated with them. I would hope donors would stop giving. I would hope the Big Ten would kick them out. I would hope other school around the country would stop associating with them, either athletically or academically. I would hope PSU would become so radioactive that they fall apart.
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I understand your position. We disagree on the appropriate jurisdiction of NCAA. I doubt that Penn State will act like I described, but until a year ago, if you had asked me could the coverup of such a crime have happened at such a high level of the university, I would have said "no way".

I read elsewhere that Penn State also has to worry about its accreditation being withdrawn for failure to report the crime. That, I feel, is too much. Withdrawing accreditation would destory the entire university.
 
#110
#110
Burger said:
That's the point, the gross negligence should also be punished in the NCAA. It was in almost every basic level of the institution. If Paterno's legacy went bye bye, then recruiting would be affected. Paterno admitted to using practices that would of gotten him in huge trouble with the NCAA before he kicked the bucket. He would be punished for what he did.
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Give me some detail here. I'm not sure what practices you are referring to.
 
#111
#111
OldandStillaVol said:
I understand your position. We disagree on the appropriate jurisdiction of NCAA. I doubt that Penn State will act like I described, but until a year ago, if you had asked me could the coverup of such a crime have happened at such a high level of the university, I would have said "no way".

I read elsewhere that Penn State also has to worry about its accreditation being withdrawn for failure to report the crime. That, I feel, is too much. Withdrawing accreditation would destory the entire university.
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I actually feel like actions by the AAU, DOE, or any other agencies of accreditation are much more appropriate than actions by the NCAA. Those agencies actually have bylaws that deal with illegal behavior on the part of the faculty and staff of their member schools, while the NCAA does not.

And they can deal out much worse punishments than the NCAA could even fathom.
 
#112
#112
bamawriter said:
I actually feel like actions by the AAU, DOE, or any other agencies of accreditation are much more appropriate than actions by the NCAA. Those agencies actually have bylaws that deal with illegal behavior on the part of the faculty and staff of their member schools, while the NCAA does not.

And they can deal out much worse punishments than the NCAA could even fathom.
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It should happen on all levels, the NCAA has to respond among the others.
 
#117
#117
bamawriter said:
Give me some detail here. I'm not sure what practices you are referring to.
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Covering up crimes that the players did. He covered up Murder, rape, and all the crimes Georgia gets in trouble for every year. I don't know if he ever payed players or anything, but he did say that his recruiting practices would of gotten him fired.
 
#118
#118
bamawriter said:
From a moral perspective, this is perhaps the worst scandal in sports history.

But from an NCAA perspective, precedent absolutely has to be considered.
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funny thing about precedent is that it has to be set first. This is the opportunity to do that
 
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#119
#119
bamawriter said:
I actually feel like actions by the AAU, DOE, or any other agencies of accreditation are much more appropriate than actions by the NCAA. Those agencies actually have bylaws that deal with illegal behavior on the part of the faculty and staff of their member schools, while the NCAA does not.

And they can deal out much worse punishments than the NCAA could even fathom.
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They certainly have the power. I think withdrawing Penn State's accreditation however would be a nuclear bomb on the school. If they come up with a severe penalty short of withdrawing accreditation, I can live with that.
 
#120
#120
TrueOrange said:
How does not hammering the football program say it was justified?

The guy who did it's in jail for life (a place that won't take kindly to what he did)

The four guys who covered it up got fired.

The university is going to be hit with a multitude of expensive civil suits that it will have to maybe pay millions for (and three of the guys who covered it up likely will face the same).

The school is going to have a black eye for decades that it will likely have to spend probably some millions on community service foundations, projects, etc, just to somewhat lighten their image.

Really the only guy who got out of all of did so because he died.


How, then, does all that say what they did was okay in the end? If anything it seems, towards others, to be a massive deterrent against what they did and how much more severe the outcome is.
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While you, personally, may feel that the community service projects you outlined would suffice, I don't. The program has to go down and go down hard. Leaving the program as it stands demonstrates that the NCAA doesn't care about massive coverups of even more massively illegal activities.
 
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#122
#122
bamawriter said:
The NCAA didn't deal with a basketball coach covering up the murder of one of his players by one of his players. I don't see them wading into this one.
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This is not one coach covering up one crime. This is at least a President, AD, VP, and head coach involved in a 14 year cover up while additional crimes occurred. Huge difference.
 
#125
#125
Burger said:
Covering up crimes that the players did. He covered up Murder, rape, and all the crimes Georgia gets in trouble for every year. I don't know if he ever payed players or anything, but he did say that his recruiting practices would of gotten him fired.
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Murder?

And I need a link to him saying his recruiting practices would have gotten him fired.
 
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