this will happen to America

#101
#101
lumberjack4 said:
Firstly, the Libertarians are split on this equal, its not the stance of the Libertarians that all national borders be dissolved. Secondly, no where in this progression of posts has anyone talked about the Libertarian stance on national borders and labor supply.
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For any libertarian to be the slightest bit logically consistent then they can't be split on the issue. As to your second point, that's simply a blatantly false statement.
 
#102
#102
Problem with legals vs. illegals is that the illegals have no documentation in the US, so you can't get the money they owe.
 
#103
#103
VOLatile said:
If they don't pay, then hospitals have to raise the costs of those that do pay to cover the charges made by the immigrants that didn't pay. Pretty simple.
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Pretty simply a completely separate issue from illegal immigration.
 
#105
#105
VOLatile said:
Problem with legals vs. illegals is that the illegals have no documentation in the US, so you can't get the money they owe.
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You may be surprised at the amount of taxes illegal immigrants pay. There's sales, property, medicare, and social security( which they'll never collect) etc... On top of that, a large portion of illegal immigrants pay income taxes even though they don't have to. Of course, none of this is has to do with my point of whether there should be a legal vs illegal immigrant.
 
#106
#106
Ed12111 said:
For any libertarian to be the slightest bit logically consistent then they can't be split on the issue. As to your second point, that's simply a blatantly false statement.
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Free market economy implies free trade, most libertarians understand or accept the need of national boundaries for other areas such as defense.
 
#107
#107
Ed12111 said:
What if I were to magically wave my hand and make them legal immigrants. How does that change anything? Unless there is a certain attribute you believe illegal immigrants to possess that makes you less likely to care for them.
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That opens a whole different discussion. (which seems to be your mo)
What if I magically waved my hand and sent them home securing the border as the crossed back over?:crazy:

If they are "illegal" immigrates they shouldn't have your "magic" to make them legal. They shouldn't be here. Your taking the stance that if they are here their legal status is irrelevant.
 
#108
#108
Ed12111 said:
Pretty simply a completely separate issue from illegal immigration.
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I just answered the question.

Ed12111 said:
You may be surprised at the amount of taxes illegal immigrants pay. There's sales, property, medicare, and social security( which they'll never collect) etc... On top of that, a large portion of illegal immigrants pay income taxes even though they don't have to. Of course, none of this is has to do with my point of whether there should be a legal vs illegal immigrant.
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This would be my argument for allowing illegals, if this was a perfect world. Unclaimed taxes and stuff is nice, but the hospitals and other private or emergency services they incur bills for don't get the money they deserve.
 
#110
#110
BeecherVol said:
That opens a whole different discussion. (which seems to be your mo)
What if I magically waved my hand and sent them home securing the border as the crossed back over?:crazy:

If they are "illegal" immigrates they shouldn't have your "magic" to make them legal. They shouldn't be here. Your taking the stance that if they are here their legal status is irrelevant.
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Somehow you always miss the point.
 
#114
#114
lumberjack4 said:
Free market economy implies free trade, most libertarians understand or accept the need of national boundaries for other areas such as defense.
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You seem to want to take non libertarian ideals and attribute them to libertarianism. If you consider yourself a libertarian, but still want national borders fine. Just don't claim it as a libertarian ideal. Most libertarians hold all sorts of ideas that aren't logically consistent. That's why it's a broken philosophy (imo).
 
#115
#115
Ed12111 said:
You seem to want to take non libertarian ideals and attribute them to libertarianism. If you consider yourself a libertarian, but still want national borders fine. Just don't claim it as a libertarian ideal. Most libertarians hold all sorts of ideas that aren't logically consistent. That's why it's a broken philosophy (imo).
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You don't have a clue as to what libertarians believe. Small government that provides only the most basic of functions, personal liberty, free economy. Maybe one day you will and come around.
 
#116
#116
lumberjack4 said:
You don't have a clue as to what libertarians believe. Small government that provides only the most basic of functions, personal liberty, free economy. Maybe one day you will and come around.
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Lol. Seems I hit a bit close. I know all about the many forms of libertarianism(the American version is a bastardized version). Don't get pissy at me because you aren't a "pure" libertarian. Not sure why you don't understand fluctuations and movement of labor is part of a free economy.
 
#117
#117
Ed12111 said:
Lol. Seems I hit a bit close. I know all about the many forms of libertarianism(the American version is a bastardized version). Don't get pissy at me because you aren't a "pure" libertarian. Not sure why you don't understand fluctuations and movement of labor is part of a free economy.
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Who's getting pissy? You're basically attributing aspects of Corporate Statism to Libertarianism. I have yet to see the post where I denied that "fluctuations and movement of labor is part of a free economy."
 
#119
#119
Ed12111 said:
In a way, BeecherVol collecting social security is welfare paid for by the hard working illegal immigrants. :lolabove:
Here's an article on illegal immigrants paying income taxes.
Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time - USATODAY.com
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actually they just get paid lower wages since many of the SS numbers are either fake or stolen. Do you think they are paying in enough for the services used? Of course that cost wasn't included in the fluff piece about illegals.
 
#121
#121
7thgroupvolfan said:
It's also hard to track an illegal when they murder someone. If they can sneak over, they can also sneak back.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Exactly. Basically while they are here (if they don't leave) the rules and laws of the land do not apply in many cases.

If they make a mess, everyone else cleans it up.
 
#122
#122
I am not sure why anyone would question whether Dems/Progressives would actually consider the seizure of retirement funds legit. They already consider transfers of wealth from productive tax payers to their dependent groups legit. They consider tax cuts to be spending increases. They consider it a group right of labor to extort money from businesses. They have utter disregard for private property rights.

Jesse Jackson as a presidential candidate in the '80's already proposed something similar.

It is not far-fetched at all that the left might try this.
 
#123
#123
Ed12111 said:
Sorry, terrorism and islamo-extremism aren't issues the right can claim as its' own. Illegal immigration and government overreach are not verifiable real problems the way the issues I raised are.
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who said the right was claiming them as their own?

Do me a favor and put me on your ignore list.
 
#124
#124
Ed12111 said:
Dead serious. Most liberals and libertarians don't think illegal immigration is a problem, and government overreach is an opinion. Global warming and growing income inequality aren't opinions.
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Does illegal immigration exist? Yes
Is the government involving itself into more and more areas? Yes.

Both are as real as the phenomena you are hawking. The issue is not whether they are real but how much of a problem they represent.

That is where opinion comes in and it lives on both sides of the spectrum.

For example, you believe (opinion) income inequality is a much bigger problem than I do.
 
#125
#125
Ed12111 said:
If you believe we are in the ethanol business because of global warming, I've got some swampland I'd like to sell you.
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I said it was partly responsible - please read my responses before responding or just ignore them.
 
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