Thoughts After Reading The Letter...

If Hamilton is in charge of the university response, it appears that we will be in serious trouble.

Hamilton is not saying that a show-cause penalty doesn't apply to UT. He's saying that Pearl will get penalties, and if they have the words "show cause" attached to them, that doesn't really affect UT one way or the other.

We will either be able to live with the penalties or not, regardless of whether the penalties come stamped with "show cause."

That's what Hamilton is saying.
 
Hamilton is not saying that a show-cause penalty doesn't apply to UT. He's saying that Pearl will get penalties, and if they have the words "show cause" attached to them, that doesn't really affect UT one way or the other.

We will either be able to live with the penalties or not, regardless of whether the penalties come stamped with "show cause."

That's what Hamilton is saying.

I'm not sure that's correct. My understanding of what Hubbs said that they are considering is that the penalties in the show-cause order don't apply to UT; they only apply to subsequent employers.
 
I'm not sure that's correct. My understanding of what Hubbs said that they are considering is that the penalties in the show-cause order don't apply to UT; they only apply to subsequent employers.

That would be clearly false and slightly crazy.

Since Hamilton has lawyers advising him, I'd say Hamilton knows what he's talking about and Hubbs is misinterpreting something.

Hubbs also tends to give one-sentence answers sometimes...maybe he's just explaining himself poorly.
 
I'm not sure that's correct. My understanding of what Hubbs said that they are considering is that the penalties in the show-cause order don't apply to UT; they only apply to subsequent employers.

What I read from Hubbs was that, a "Show Cause" would have no affect on Pearl's employment at UT. Not that the penalty won't apply to UT. Hubbs said he expects Pearl to miss more games. I was bet UT does too.
 
How so? I personally think he has done well so far.

1. Pearl admits unethical conduct, lying to the NCAA, trying to influence others, accessing confidential information from his assistants about the inquiry, and what does Hammy do? He doesn't fire him; he doesn't suspend him 1 game; he lets him recruit some more for a brief time off-campus; he issues a lighter self-imposed penalty than is ever accepted by the NCAA in such a case; and publicly stands behind Pearl. Pearl is the first head coach any AD has ever tried to keep knowing that unethical charge against the HC for lying is coming. That's mistake #1.

2. Pearl converses with a recruit off-campus 4 days after his crying contrition. Hammy still clears it and doesn't self-report under some bogus theory it wasn't a violation. That elevates it to a major violation. That's mistake #2.

3. The NCAA begins discussion of the LOA details, so Hammy knows there will be 9 major violations alleged, most involving the HC personally, and accusing the university and HC of institutional failure, Pearl of unethical conduct, several assistants of dishonest conduct, and violations within 4 days of the crying contrition speech. Hammy doesn't take any additional action against the coaches, doesn't spin a story to explain how his department "cleared" what the NCAA says was a violation within 4 days of Pearl's speech, and pretends he doesn't have the report to people like Hubbs until the NCAA leaks the fact we got it to national press. Mistake #3.

4. After news outlets document that any coach in Pearl's position (unethical conduct charge) has received a show-cause order, Hammy has Hubbs telling people again and again that such a show-cause order wouldn't apply to Pearl under some ludicrous theory it only applies to programs other than the program the coach committed the violations at. Mistake #4.

5. We're going to go through the season, the conference tourney, and the national tourney riding & cheering a coach the NCAA just made unethical conduct charges against, which will send the same sort of signal Mike Garrett sent to the NCAA during a similar stage of the USC inquiry by hiring Kiffin & crew. (How did that work out for USC?) Mistake #5.
 
That would be clearly false and slightly crazy.

Since Hamilton has lawyers advising him, I'd say Hamilton knows what he's talking about and Hubbs is misinterpreting something.

Hubbs also tends to give one-sentence answers sometimes...maybe he's just explaining himself poorly.

I agree. My understanding was that's what was being said because Hubbs flatly states that they are taking the position that the show-cause doesn't apply to UT; I'm assuming that includes the penalties that accompany the show-cause as well.
 
I'm not sure that's correct. My understanding of what Hubbs said that they are considering is that the penalties in the show-cause order don't apply to UT; they only apply to subsequent employers.

That's precisely what he was saying. If you argued otherwise over there, posters were citing Hubbs and telling people they were "idiots" because it was "clear" a show-cause order "didn't apply" to Tennessee.

Hubbs recently added his source was from the athletic department and he had been initially told by the AD's office that a show-cause order wouldn't affect Pearl's coaching at Tennessee, which is clearly inaccurate.
 
1. Pearl admits unethical conduct, lying to the NCAA, trying to influence others, accessing confidential information from his assistants about the inquiry, and what does Hammy do? He doesn't fire him; he doesn't suspend him 1 game; he lets him recruit some more for a brief time off-campus; he issues a lighter self-imposed penalty than is ever accepted by the NCAA in such a case; and publicly stands behind Pearl. Pearl is the first head coach any AD has ever tried to keep knowing that unethical charge against the HC for lying is coming. That's mistake #1.

2. Pearl converses with a recruit off-campus 4 days after his crying contrition. Hammy still clears it and doesn't self-report under some bogus theory it wasn't a violation. That elevates it to a major violation. That's mistake #2.

3. The NCAA begins discussion of the LOA details, so Hammy knows there will be 9 major violations alleged, most involving the HC personally, and accusing the university and HC of institutional failure, Pearl of unethical conduct, several assistants of dishonest conduct, and violations within 4 days of the crying contrition speech. Hammy doesn't take any additional action against the coaches, doesn't spin a story to explain how his department "cleared" what the NCAA says was a violation within 4 days of Pearl's speech, and pretends he doesn't have the report to people like Hubbs until the NCAA leaks the fact we got it to national press. Mistake #3.

4. After news outlets document that any coach in Pearl's position (unethical conduct charge) has received a show-cause order, Hammy has Hubbs telling people again and again that such a show-cause order wouldn't apply to Pearl under some ludicrous theory it only applies to programs other than the program the coach committed the violations at. Mistake #4.

5. We're going to go through the season, the conference tourney, and the national tourney riding & cheering a coach the NCAA just made unethical conduct charges against, which will send the same sort of signal Mike Garrett sent to the NCAA during a similar stage of the USC inquiry by hiring Kiffin & crew. (How did that work out for USC?) Mistake #5.

Picky, picky, picky. You've just clearly indicated how well Hamilton has responded so far. He should be praised for this excellent response and his continued undying support of Pearl.
 
1. Pearl admits unethical conduct, lying to the NCAA, trying to influence others, accessing confidential information from his assistants about the inquiry, and what does Hammy do? He doesn't fire him; he doesn't suspend him 1 game; he lets him recruit some more for a brief time off-campus; he issues a lighter self-imposed penalty than is ever accepted by the NCAA in such a case; and publicly stands behind Pearl. Pearl is the first head coach any AD has ever tried to keep knowing that unethical charge against the HC for lying is coming. That's mistake #1.

2. Pearl converses with a recruit off-campus 4 days after his crying contrition. Hammy still clears it and doesn't self-report under some bogus theory it wasn't a violation. That elevates it to a major violation. That's mistake #2.

3. The NCAA begins discussion of the LOA details, so Hammy knows there will be 9 major violations alleged, most involving the HC personally, and accusing the university and HC of institutional failure, Pearl of unethical conduct, several assistants of dishonest conduct, and violations within 4 days of the crying contrition speech. Hammy doesn't take any additional action against the coaches, doesn't spin a story to explain how his department "cleared" what the NCAA says was a violation within 4 days of Pearl's speech, and pretends he doesn't have the report to people like Hubbs until the NCAA leaks the fact we got it to national press. Mistake #3.

4. After news outlets document that any coach in Pearl's position (unethical conduct charge) has received a show-cause order, Hammy has Hubbs telling people again and again that such a show-cause order wouldn't apply to Pearl under some ludicrous theory it only applies to programs other than the program the coach committed the violations at. Mistake #4.

5. We're going to go through the season, the conference tourney, and the national tourney riding & cheering a coach the NCAA just made unethical conduct charges against, which will send the same sort of signal Mike Garrett sent to the NCAA during a similar stage of the USC inquiry by hiring Kiffin & crew. (How did that work out for USC?) Mistake #5.

That isn't what Hubbs said. Hubbs said it would not affect his employment at UT.
 
Yes, it won't affect his employment because it doesn't apply. That's what's being said on TOS.

I am on TOS, and I have read most of Hubbs posts on the subject, not all though. I haven't seen the one that said, "This will be UT's defense..." It may be out there, I just haven't seen that one. I think it is to early to already know how they will appeal.
 
I am on TOS, and I have read most of Hubbs posts on the subject, not all though. I haven't seen the one that said, "This will be UT's defense..." It may be out there, I just haven't seen that one. I think it is to early to already know how they will appeal.

I have clearly qualified my statements that "if" this is used, it's fundamentally retarded.
 
Good thread, LawVol13. Other than the childish and/or dismissive rhetoric from some, many good points were made by you and many posters. My answer is that there is a great deal to still be hashed out by UT and the AA. UT will take the high road in their discussions, unlike Bama. Some posters seem to think MH and the UT administrators are inept and they have the right to their opinion. I disagree for the most part. Coach Pearl was inept in his ability to follow the rules and tell the truth. I don't think winning in the past supercedes the trouble he caused now. Anybody that thinks recruiting and winning games are going to get better by holding on to him for the next few years is not living in reality. MH and crew are going to maintain their supportive position of Pearl in the press to shore up the rest of the season and to send a message to the AA that they are not going to roll over on the penalty phase. If the actual result is more than a year on the suspension, they will have time to appeal and get a decision before the next recruiting season. If there is no relief they will have plenty of time to lay the groundwork for the permanent replacement hire. My two cents worth...
 
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Good thread, LawVol13. Other than the childish and/or dismissive rhetoric from some, many good points were made by you and many posters. My answer is that there is a great deal to still be hashed out by UT and the AA. UT will take the high road in their discussions, unlike Bama. Some posters seem to think MH and the UT administrators are inept and they have the right to their opinion. I disagree for the most part. Coach Pearl was inept in his ability to follow the rules and tell the truth. I don't think winning in the past supercedes the trouble he caused now. Anybody that thinks recruiting and winning games are going to get better by holding on to him for the next few years is not living in reality. MH and crew are going to maintain their supportive position of Pearl in the press to shore up the rest of the season and to send a message to the AA that they are not going to roll over on the penalty phase. If the actual result is more than a year on the suspension, they will have time to appeal and get a decision before the next recruiting season. If there is no relief they will have plenty of time to lay the groundwork for the permanent replacement hire. My two cents worth...

Good post. Post more often.
 
Good thread, LawVol13. Other than the childish and/or dismissive rhetoric from some, many good points were made by you and many posters. My answer is that there is a great deal to still be hashed out by UT and the AA. UT will take the high road in their discussions, unlike Bama. Some posters seem to think MH and the UT administrators are inept and they have the right to their opinion. I disagree for the most part. Coach Pearl was inept in his ability to follow the rules and tell the truth. I don't think winning in the past supercedes the trouble he caused now. Anybody that thinks recruiting and winning games are going to get better by holding on to him for the next few years is not living in reality. MH and crew are going to maintain their supportive position of Pearl in the press to shore up the rest of the season and to send a message to the AA that they are not going to roll over on the penalty phase. If the actual result is more than a year on the suspension, they will have time to appeal and get a decision before the next recruiting season. If there is no relief they will have plenty of time to lay the groundwork for the permanent replacement hire. My two cents worth...

I wouldn't quite say inept because CBP was fully aware of his actions. Negligent is more suitable. CBP came forward on his own, confronted the media, and said what he needed to say. From this action and the university self-imposing punishments, UT has a good case, in my opinion, to keep CBP on board. SEC commissioner Mike Slive furthered that punishment. Not to mention, the $1.5 million CBP is scheduled to lose is actually more around the figure of $2 million if you note the benefits that he would have received.

There is no way to justify his actions; however, CBP has done well in attempting to amend those actions. I truly think that he feels remorse and understands that he owes something of great value to the institution. Moreover, if UT gets rid of him, as fans we can say good-bye to a relevant basketball program. Naming off possible replacements is irrelevant because no coach of any prominent stature would take over the UT basketball program simply because it did not exist before CBP.
 
I wouldn't quite say inept because CBP was fully aware of his actions. Negligent is more suitable.

It must be nice living in fantasy land. Somehow, I think intentionally breaking rules, intentionally lying, and intentionally conspiring to get others to lie is more than negligence.
 
Hubbs just posted on VQ that he asked a couple different athletic department officials about the "show cause letter" and one of them told him that Pearl could still coach with the letter. The other was not sure how it works.

So basically what I gather from this is that it depends on what exactly is in the letter. If it is just recruiting restrictions, then he can still coach. If it involves coaching restrictions, he can't.
 
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I'm not naive enough to believe that college recruiting is pure and clean. College recruiting is a business. Careers and lots of money are at stake. Having the dirty laundry aired sucks but I realize there is no shortage of unscrupulous activities in recruiting.

Lots of the dirty secrets in recruiting would bother me. Fortunately, only a few idiots get caught so the practice can maintain some public level of dignity.

This is what I am saying. My real issue with BP is that he was an idiot about handling it. We can all agree there are bigger violations going on right now at many Universities. Those fans nor us would really really care if we didn't know and it made for W's. That's fact or Cam would never have played for a NC and Cal wouldn't still be a BB coach. What makes me want to fire Pearl and MH today is them being so piss poor at playing the game. I also see the points of pl3 (or whatever handle) in that aside from our morale disdain these are all pretty stupid infractions that barely measure on any scale other than the IDIOT scale.


This fanbase doesn't have the stomach for being an Auburn, Bama, or UM style win at all costs program. I think Kiff already showed us that.
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It must be nice living in fantasy land. Somehow, I think intentionally breaking rules, intentionally lying, and intentionally conspiring to get others to lie is more than negligence.

Pearl has proven to be inept and reckless at living in the gray area of recruiting (cheating). Hambone has proven to be inept at public relations.
 
1. Pearl admits unethical conduct, lying to the NCAA, trying to influence others, accessing confidential information from his assistants about the inquiry, and what does Hammy do? He doesn't fire him; he doesn't suspend him 1 game; he lets him recruit some more for a brief time off-campus; he issues a lighter self-imposed penalty than is ever accepted by the NCAA in such a case; and publicly stands behind Pearl. Pearl is the first head coach any AD has ever tried to keep knowing that unethical charge against the HC for lying is coming. That's mistake #1.

I don't see how suspending Pearl and Jones for one year, Forbes for six months, and Shay for three months, from off-campus recruiting, can be considered a "light" penalty. That is a tougher recruiting restriction than the NCAA just gave UConn.


2. Pearl converses with a recruit off-campus 4 days after his crying contrition. Hammy still clears it and doesn't self-report under some bogus theory it wasn't a violation. That elevates it to a major violation. That's mistake #2.

I want to hear why Hamilton cleared it before I form an opinion here.


3. The NCAA begins discussion of the LOA details, so Hammy knows there will be 9 major violations alleged, most involving the HC personally, and accusing the university and HC of institutional failure, Pearl of unethical conduct, several assistants of dishonest conduct, and violations within 4 days of the crying contrition speech. Hammy doesn't take any additional action against the coaches, doesn't spin a story to explain how his department "cleared" what the NCAA says was a violation within 4 days of Pearl's speech, and pretends he doesn't have the report to people like Hubbs until the NCAA leaks the fact we got it to national press. Mistake #3.

I don't see why Hamilton should take additional action if he knew what was going to be in the letter. I also don't see why he is obligated to publicly discuss the argument he is going to make before the NCAA.


4. After news outlets document that any coach in Pearl's position (unethical conduct charge) has received a show-cause order, Hammy has Hubbs telling people again and again that such a show-cause order wouldn't apply to Pearl under some ludicrous theory it only applies to programs other than the program the coach committed the violations at. Mistake #4.

I have read multiple definitions of "show-cause." If other VN posters are correct when they say a show-cause penalty means the associated substantive penalties follow the coach to another job, then the show-cause penalty itself won't affect UT (other than more bad PR).


5. We're going to go through the season, the conference tourney, and the national tourney riding & cheering a coach the NCAA just made unethical conduct charges against, which will send the same sort of signal Mike Garrett sent to the NCAA during a similar stage of the USC inquiry by hiring Kiffin & crew. (How did that work out for USC?) Mistake #5.

The underlying offenses at USC were much worse than Bruce's cookout, and they hired them right before making their case. There is no comparison there. I thought USC was stupid for bringing in the guys who were there when the Bush violations happened.


The accusation I personally have the biggest problem with is that Bruce influenced the Crafts to lie. To me, that is a major ethical issue. I can't believe how badly Pearl and his staff fell apart over being questioned about a cookout.
 
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This is what I am saying. My real issue with BP is that he was an idiot about handling it. We can all agree there are bigger violations going on right now at many Universities. Those fans nor us would really really care if we didn't know and it made for W's. That's fact or Cam would never have played for a NC and Cal wouldn't still be a BB coach. What makes me want to fire Pearl and MH today is them being so piss poor at playing the game. I also see the points of pl3 (or whatever handle) in that aside from our morale disdain these are all pretty stupid infractions that barely measure on any scale other than the IDIOT scale.

Uh, the way he handled it is the only thing anybody has a problem with. Nobody cares about the stupid cookout. Nobody on this board is wringing his hands about the fact that Pearl made too many phone calls.

This fanbase doesn't have the stomach for being an Auburn, Bama, or UM style win at all costs program. I think Kiff already showed us that.
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Nice of you to reframe character as cowardice. This is college sports; there are other values in play here than just winning. If that's all you care about, you should stick to pro sports.
 
The accusation I personally have the biggest problem with is that Bruce influenced the Crafts to lie. To me, that is a major ethical issue. I can't believe how badly Pearl and his staff fell apart over being questioned about a cookout.

Ethics or no it was mainly just idiotic.
Crap I'm in a shallow hole, wonder if I can make it to China?
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