UNC and Duke Basketball, 2015-16

#153
#153
Speaking of the one whose hair never turns gray, I see where he is out ill tonight.

If I were Vegas right now, I'd get a betting line together for the odds that K returns this season.

Any takers for Injured Back Season, Part II?

I'll have to admit, I think he comes back, but this has felt like an injured back season for the past month. It wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't make it back this season.
 
#154
#154
Regulator said:
Duke not in Top 25 for first time since 2007.

#K
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UNC has the best team in the country by far and yet they're struggling. This is just like a Roy coached team. I'd love to see what someone like K or Izzo could do with the talent Roy has on that roster right now. Instead, he's just wasting it as their draft stock plummets and he has no championships whatsoever to show for it. So.... #Roy
 
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#155
#155
volprof said:
Speaking of the one whose hair never turns gray, I see where he is out ill tonight.

If I were Vegas right now, I'd get a betting line together for the odds that K returns this season.

Any takers for Injured Back Season, Part II?

I'll have to admit, I think he comes back, but this has felt like an injured back season for the past month. It wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't make it back this season.
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I think he makes it back; however, I like the things Capel did tonight and the decisions he made are what got the W. I agreed with his decisions more tonight than I have with K's during this rough patch. Maybe what Capel did will show K some things he can do with this team that he hadn't been doing before? For instance, Capel played more guys and got them extended minutes - he put Jeter in and let him play thru some mistakes. In my opinion the only way to get someone where they need to be is to let them play. He gave Thornton extended minutes and he thrived with his best in-conference game yet. Heck he even gave Antonio V some minutes. He had Ingram bring the ball up the floor which I thought was interesting but it put the ball in hands of our most versatile player and allowed him to make some plays which seemed to work. Lastly, he switched to man after seeing zone was not working as it hasn't been in the past few games. His decision to switch to man was what I believe was the reason for the win. This team matches up well with most teams in man and that switch won them the game.
 
#156
#156
Capel did alright tonight, but if he's the coach for any extended period of time, it'll be a disaster.
 
#157
#157
kid50 said:
I think he makes it back; however, I like the things Capel did tonight and the decisions he made are what got the W. I agreed with his decisions more tonight than I have with K's during this rough patch. Maybe what Capel did will show K some things he can do with this team that he hadn't been doing before? For instance, Capel played more guys and got them extended minutes - he put Jeter in and let him play thru some mistakes. In my opinion the only way to get someone where they need to be is to let them play. He gave Thornton extended minutes and he thrived with his best in-conference game yet. Heck he even gave Antonio V some minutes. He had Ingram bring the ball up the floor which I thought was interesting but it put the ball in hands of our most versatile player and allowed him to make some plays which seemed to work. Lastly, he switched to man after seeing zone was not working as it hasn't been in the past few games. His decision to switch to man was what I believe was the reason for the win. This team matches up well with most teams in man and that switch won them the game.
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Sounds like we've got ourselves a little coaching conflict going down in Durham. K may decide he needs to come back after all, or else he might lose his job.

:)
 
#158
#158
volprof said:
Sounds like we've got ourselves a little coaching conflict going down in Durham. K may decide he needs to come back after all, or else he might lose his job.

:)
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Hahaha woah now. No one said anything about a conflict! I do think and I think most would agree that sometimes K can get stuck in his own ways and be a little stubborn to change mid-game strategy like playing more players so it was nice to see that tonight, but they did have some time to prepare. I think this is gonna be a great thing going forward unless Jefferson doesn't come back - if he doesn't, let's just shut the season down.
 
#159
#159
VKAman said:
Capel did alright tonight, but if he's the coach for any extended period of time, it'll be a disaster.
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I disagree. I think he did some good things tonight that allowed some players to free up and play a good game like Thornton did. He's no K, but I think he made some calls that idk if K would have like playing Jeter more minutes and Ingram bringing the ball up the court. Hopefully K can incorporate some of these things going forward. Nonetheless, it's nice to know we have more than capable assistant coaches. How many assistant coaches do you think can go on the road in short notice in conference play and win?
 
#160
#160
kid50 said:
I disagree. I think he did some good things tonight that allowed some players to free up and play a good game like Thornton did. He's no K, but I think he made some calls that idk if K would have like playing Jeter more minutes and Ingram bringing the ball up the court. Hopefully K can incorporate some of these things going forward. Nonetheless, it's nice to know we have more than capable assistant coaches. How many assistant coaches do you think can go on the road in short notice in conference play and win?
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It just worries me that there's a push for him to be K's successor. We've seen him as a HC before, and he's not a very good one.
 
#161
#161
VKAman said:
It just worries me that there's a push for him to be K's successor. We've seen him as a HC before, and he's not a very good one.
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For me, and obviously for you Dukies, this is one of the most fascinating questions in college basketball the next decade or so: what will Duke look like after K?

We can discuss where the Duke program is now and historically in relation to UNC (is it a better program, even historically, now?), but there's one big unanswered in this entire debate: what does a K-less Duke look like? Well, the short answer to that is we don't really know. We have some idea of what it looked like before him - a middle tier college program with some record of success but nothing striking. But this doesn't help us answer the question.

With UNC, you know what you have; it's a program that, despite its ups and downs, is a proven race horse and is going to be at the top of college basketball the next decade, the decade after that, and so on. It's survived major coaching changes, and it will survive Roy, because it is bigger than any one coach. With Duke, however, we just don't know.

My tremendously toned gut and my acute intellect both tell me that Duke will ultimately prove more than K, but I do not think Duke will ever see that level of success again. I think you'll go from a program that should expect to win a title about twice a decade to a program that should expect a title about once a decade. Too many what-ifs for Duke though to say one way or the other for certain.

Although, to be honest, we may never even have to answer this question. Given that his hair never grays and he apparently never ages, he may coach at Duke for another 40 years, kind of like how Vladimir Putin will still be president of Russia in 2050.
 
#162
#162
volprof said:
For me, and obviously for you Dukies, this is one of the most fascinating questions in college basketball the next decade or so: what will Duke look like after K?

We can discuss where the Duke program is now and historically in relation to UNC (is it a better program, even historically, now?), but there's one big unanswered in this entire debate: what does a K-less Duke look like? Well, the short answer to that is we don't really know. We have some idea of what it looked like before him - a middle tier college program with some record of success but nothing striking. But this doesn't help us answer the question.

With UNC, you know what you have; it's a program that, despite its ups and downs, is a proven race horse and is going to be at the top of college basketball the next decade, the decade after that, and so on. It's survived major coaching changes, and it will survive Roy, because it is bigger than any one coach. With Duke, however, we just don't know.

My tremendously toned gut and my acute intellect both tell me that Duke will ultimately prove more than K, but I do not think Duke will ever see that level of success again. I think you'll go from a program that should expect to win a title about twice a decade to a program that should expect a title about once a decade. Too many what-ifs for Duke though to say one way or the other for certain.

Although, to be honest, we may never even have to answer this question. Given that his hair never grays and he apparently never ages, he may coach at Duke for another 40 years, kind of like how Vladimir Putin will still be president of Russia in 2050.
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Haha. They probably won't have another coach win 5 titles by himself, but I'm not sure who else will either. As a top-5 program, they'll be fine if they hire good coaches the way Arizona did with Miller. I'm just hoping we don't have to sit through a Capel era, where he brings all of K's momentum to a halt, before it happens.
 
#163
#163
volprof said:
For me, and obviously for you Dukies, this is one of the most fascinating questions in college basketball the next decade or so: what will Duke look like after K?

We can discuss where the Duke program is now and historically in relation to UNC (is it a better program, even historically, now?), but there's one big unanswered in this entire debate: what does a K-less Duke look like? Well, the short answer to that is we don't really know. We have some idea of what it looked like before him - a middle tier college program with some record of success but nothing striking. But this doesn't help us answer the question.

With UNC, you know what you have; it's a program that, despite its ups and downs, is a proven race horse and is going to be at the top of college basketball the next decade, the decade after that, and so on. It's survived major coaching changes, and it will survive Roy, because it is bigger than any one coach. With Duke, however, we just don't know.

My tremendously toned gut and my acute intellect both tell me that Duke will ultimately prove more than K, but I do not think Duke will ever see that level of success again. I think you'll go from a program that should expect to win a title about twice a decade to a program that should expect a title about once a decade. Too many what-ifs for Duke though to say one way or the other for certain.

Although, to be honest, we may never even have to answer this question. Given that his hair never grays and he apparently never ages, he may coach at Duke for another 40 years, kind of like how Vladimir Putin will still be president of Russia in 2050.
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I think the biggest question is after K do they go with a former Dukie or branch out from the Duke family? Personally, I think it would be better to branch out bc most of the former Duke players and assistants have been just average head coaches, none really stick out as the clear front-runner. However, it's possible the Capel could step into that position and maybe that's what he's waiting on since he's turned down so many HC options in the past. He can recruit, but maybe these few years under K have been good for him. Who knows? But one thing I think we all can agree on is when he leaves Duke should be able to pretty much pick who they want to be next.
 
#164
#164
kid50 said:
I think the biggest question is after K do they go with a former Dukie or branch out from the Duke family? Personally, I think it would be better to branch out bc most of the former Duke players and assistants have been just average head coaches, none really stick out as the clear front-runner. However, it's possible the Capel could step into that position and maybe that's what he's waiting on since he's turned down so many HC options in the past. He can recruit, but maybe these few years under K have been good for him. Who knows? But one thing I think we all can agree on is when he leaves Duke should be able to pretty much pick who they want to be next.
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100% agree
 
#165
#165
I think a few of the duke player assistants are just growing into their possibilities. That said, I really think K would've called it a couple of years back if he felt like there was a replacement out there he was comfortable with.
 
#166
#166
volfanbill said:
I think a few of the duke player assistants are just growing into their possibilities. That said, I really think K would've called it a couple of years back if he felt like there was a replacement out there he was comfortable with.
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Yeah, I think you said this before but Hurley has some potential, Wojo might too and Brey is a good coach. But I wouldn't want to give any of them the keys to a top-5 program. And the fans I've seen want Capel or Johnny freaking Dawkins, which just makes me sad.
 
#167
#167
VKAman said:
Yeah, I think you said this before but Hurley has some potential, Wojo might too and Brey is a good coach. But I wouldn't want to give any of them the keys to a top-5 program. And the fans I've seen want Capel or Johnny freaking Dawkins, which just makes me sad.
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Fortunately, the fans don't make the hire
 
#168
#168
VKAman said:
It just worries me that there's a push for him to be K's successor. We've seen him as a HC before, and he's not a very good one.
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It won't matter who makes the push to be K's successor because ultimately K is the one who is going to make that decision anyway. It's no mistake that all of the coaches from K's coaching tree are all at very similar institutions as Duke. Small private universities with excellent academic reputations.
 
#170
#170
I think the quality that has made K the best coach in college basketball history (Wooden is an anomaly and largely the product of historical circumstances not related to individual genius, so I don't consider him the greatest) is not his ability with X's and O's so much or even that he's had the best players (that's debatable, but I would say he has not had the best players necessarily) but, rather, his ability to adapt. Given that he began at Duke in '80 or '81, making him one of the old school in terms of age, he has demonstrated a clear track record of adapting to the times, unlike many other coaches (hint hint, Roy, hint hint).

In the mid-80s, K stood there and looked at that newly formed 3 point line and said to himself, "Lord Satan, I think I can make something out of this damned thing." And so he did. He got the best 3 point shooters there are, and with the game becoming more and more 3-centric (even the NBA is now with Golden State), he led the way and has maintained the best 3 point shooting. (As far as I'm concerned, the 3 point line is the most revolutionary development in basketball history, probably even more so than the 7 foot big man. It has completely changed the game and it allows inferior teams to beat far more superior teams on any given night.) He then took advantage of the one and done rule. If you can get NBA talent in college again, then, by golly, do it! And that's what he did. He didn't sit around scratching himself like Roy; he saw what Cal was doing and decided he wasn't going to let that blowhard beat him. So K adapted in recruiting as well.

K's a lot like Belichick and Saban.. It's not necessarily that he's the world's best in-game coach, although he's certainly good at it; rather, it's that he's built a system - an unstoppable machine that can lose its parts and then have new ones plugged in and keep on rolling, because the machine is bigger than any one part. Belichick has his Brady and Saban has his strong defenses and run games, and it doesn't matter who else you plug into the system because it will work. It doesn't matter who Brady's running backs or wide receivers are, and it doesn't matter who Saban's QB is. Similarly, K always gets strong 3 point shooters, with maybe one solid post player, and the machine rolls. It has a setback every now and then, but it wins far more often than not.
 
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#171
#171
volprof said:
I think the quality that has made K the best coach in college basketball history (Wooden is an anomaly and largely the product of historical circumstances not related to individual genius, so I don't consider him the greatest) is not his ability with X's and O's so much or even that he's had the best players (that's debatable, but I would say he has not had the best players necessarily) but, rather, his ability to adapt. Given that he began at Duke in '80 or '81, making him one of the old school in terms of age, he has demonstrated a clear track record of adapting to the times, unlike many other coaches (hint hint, Roy, hint hint).

In the mid-80s, K stood there and looked at that newly formed 3 point line and said to himself, "Lord Satan, I think I can make something out of this damned thing." And so he did. He got the best 3 point shooters there are, and with the game becoming more and more 3-centric (even the NBA is now with Golden State), he led the way and has maintained the best 3 point shooting. (As far as I'm concerned, the 3 point line is the most revolutionary development in basketball history, probably even more so than the 7 foot big man. It has completely changed the game and it allows inferior teams to beat far more superior teams on any given night.) He then took advantage of the one and done rule. If you can get NBA talent in college again, then, by golly, do it! And that's what he did. He didn't sit around scratching himself like Roy; he saw what Cal was doing and decided he wasn't going to let that blowhard beat him. So K adapted in recruiting as well.

K's a lot like Belichick and Saban.. It's not necessarily that he's the world's best in-game coach, although he's certainly good at it; rather, it's that he's built a system - an unstoppable machine that can lose its parts and then have new ones plugged in and keep on rolling, because the machine is bigger than any one part. Belichick has his Brady and Saban has his strong defenses and run games, and it doesn't matter who else you plug into the system because it will work. It doesn't matter who Brady's running backs or wide receivers are, and it doesn't matter who Saban's QB is. Similarly, K always gets strong 3 point shooters, with maybe one solid post player, and the machine rolls. It has a setback every now and then, but it wins far more often than not.
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Completely agree. I've maintained for a while that Knight was the best, but I've been rethinking recently because I don't think he'd be able to adapt to different eras the way K has.
 
#172
#172
volprof said:
I think the quality that has made K the best coach in college basketball history (Wooden is an anomaly and largely the product of historical circumstances not related to individual genius, so I don't consider him the greatest) is not his ability with X's and O's so much or even that he's had the best players (that's debatable, but I would say he has not had the best players necessarily) but, rather, his ability to adapt. Given that he began at Duke in '80 or '81, making him one of the old school in terms of age, he has demonstrated a clear track record of adapting to the times, unlike many other coaches (hint hint, Roy, hint hint).

In the mid-80s, K stood there and looked at that newly formed 3 point line and said to himself, "Lord Satan, I think I can make something out of this damned thing." And so he did. He got the best 3 point shooters there are, and with the game becoming more and more 3-centric (even the NBA is now with Golden State), he led the way and has maintained the best 3 point shooting. (As far as I'm concerned, the 3 point line is the most revolutionary development in basketball history, probably even more so than the 7 foot big man. It has completely changed the game and it allows inferior teams to beat far more superior teams on any given night.) He then took advantage of the one and done rule. If you can get NBA talent in college again, then, by golly, do it! And that's what he did. He didn't sit around scratching himself like Roy; he saw what Cal was doing and decided he wasn't going to let that blowhard beat him. So K adapted in recruiting as well.

K's a lot like Belichick and Saban.. It's not necessarily that he's the world's best in-game coach, although he's certainly good at it; rather, it's that he's built a system - an unstoppable machine that can lose its parts and then have new ones plugged in and keep on rolling, because the machine is bigger than any one part. Belichick has his Brady and Saban has his strong defenses and run games, and it doesn't matter who else you plug into the system because it will work. It doesn't matter who Brady's running backs or wide receivers are, and it doesn't matter who Saban's QB is. Similarly, K always gets strong 3 point shooters, with maybe one solid post player, and the machine rolls. It has a setback every now and then, but it wins far more often than not.
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I agree with you. I actually had a pretty lengthy conversation with a friend of mine who works in the UNC athletic department about the comparisons between K, Belichick and Saban.
I would throw Popovich in there too.
 
#173
#173
RDU VOL#14 said:
I agree with you. I actually had a pretty lengthy conversation with a friend of mine who works in the UNC athletic department about the comparisons between K, Belichick and Saban.
I would throw Popovich in there too.
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Yes, he's another "system" guy. He has his couple of stable parts (Tim Duncan foremost), but, other than that, it doesn't matter. Just plug it in, plug it in. Doesn't matter.
 
#174
#174
He may have struggled to open the 2nd half, but it seems as if things are starting to click for Derryck Thornton. He starting to make some shots and create a little bit. His on-ball defense surprised me a bit too. It was some of the best on-ball D ive seen in a couple years.
 
#175
#175
kid50 said:
He may have struggled to open the 2nd half, but it seems as if things are starting to click for Derryck Thornton. He starting to make some shots and create a little bit. His on-ball defense surprised me a bit too. It was some of the best on-ball D ive seen in a couple years.
Click to expand...

Speaking of starting to click... Marcus Paige alert...
 
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