UNC and Duke Basketball, 2015-16

#101
#101
volprof said:
This is partially true, which is one reason why I've long argued that Roy should take an approach to recruiting more like K and Calipari. Recruit players who should already be in the NBA, if not for a ridiculous, arbitrary rule, and make it look like you made them NBA-talent in the process. Then future top recruits, who are already NBA-ready, will think they have to continue to come to you to be made NBA-ready. It's smart really, even though it's obviously just one giant sham.
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volprof said:
Justin Jackson is incredibly disappointing this year, especially after his freshman year seemed so promising; however, both Brice Johnson and Marcus Paige (with the exception of his last few games) have been far better than anyone ever would have thought. Outside of Jackson, it's also been a few years since Roy pulled a recruit that most analysts would expect as unquestionable NBA talent at least in the future. As far as Barnes and McAdoo are concerned, it's tough to tell. They've been manageable in the NBA, especially Barnes, but they haven't set the world on fire either. Is this merely a product of college coaching? Can NBA coaches not make players better? Golden State has been the best team in the NBA the past two seasons, so I assume they have good coaching. Similarly, we see guys who weren't really that good in college become stars in the NBA. Is this player development, or is it system? Maybe Barnes and McAdoo were just overrated out of high school. It's hard to say.

I'm not going to argue that Roy is a great coach or that he is a great developer of talent. I think he is a good coach, who is an average developer of talent. I don't think any of us should pretend, however, that Cal and K have some sort of secret to develop talent that the rest of coaches do not. They've recruited the best NBA-ready talent the past few years since the NBA rule has been in place, and they have sent players to the NBA accordingly. I don't think anything they've done in this regard has been exceptional; it just appears so.
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It's nowhere near as automatic as you're making it sound. There's absolutely no debating the effect that Calipari's coaching had on guys like Randle and Towns. McAdoo was the #2 player on Ford's Big Board after his freshman year and went undrafted. He was overrated in HS, but his draft stock was still high after a year at UNC and then went straight down the toilet thereafter. Cal and K are both good at adapting their systems to highlight their players' greatest strengths and minimize their weaknesses, which is why their players get drafted often higher than they should.
 
#103
#103
VKAman said:
It's nowhere near as automatic as you're making it sound. There's absolutely no debating the effect that Calipari's coaching had on guys like Randle and Towns. McAdoo was the #2 player on Ford's Big Board after his freshman year and went undrafted. He was overrated in HS, but his draft stock was still high after a year at UNC and then went straight down the toilet thereafter. Cal and K are both good at adapting their systems to highlight their players' greatest strengths and minimize their weaknesses, which is why their players get drafted often higher than they should.
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We can agree to disagree. I'm of the mind that if you consistently get more top 5 recruits every year you're going to send more guys to the NBA. Pretty simple, in my opinion.
 
#105
#105
Gotta think of who else Is on his team.

HB could be a solid second or third option elsewhere

He's a better pro than Jabari and has a position
 
#107
#107
volprof said:
If I had to pick a (little past midseason) Final Four right now, where the best teams meet in the final, it would be UNC, Maryland, Oklahoma, and Kansas, with UNC and Maryland meeting in the final. (Obviously, straight chalk is pretty rare though.) Kansas has had a bad loss, but I don't put too much stock into right now. Similarly, I don't put too much stock into Villanova. I don't buy any teams from the Big East since that conference was ransacked by the Big 12 and the ACC.
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What do you think about MSU? From what I saw early, with Valentine playing good, they were really doing well. Haven't seen them play since he got hurt though.

Oh, and let me thank Duke for making our win look so good :thud:
 
#108
#108
Let's not forget that it wasn't that long ago that the list of NBA stars that came out of Duke began and ended with Grant Hill. Jay Williams would have gotten there if he hadn't got hurt.
 
#109
#109
AV_12 said:
Gotta think of who else Is on his team.

HB could be a solid second or third option elsewhere

He's a better pro than Jabari and has a position
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It's a little early to declare him a better pro at this point considering Jabari hasn't even played a full season bc he had a major knee injury last year. Has he not had that injury last he probably would've been rookie of the year. Plus, this year he has been pretty good coming off that injury.
 
#110
#110
volprof said:
This year has seen the most losses by top 5 teams to this point in the season in history. While no one could anticipate that statistic directly, it should not be surprising. We were all anticipating this year to be one of strong parity, unlike last year. I think we have largely seen that thus far. I also think that UNC was given the slight preseason edge by most for a reason, and, so far, we've seen why. I think UNC still has a few games to lose, but they've appeared to be the strongest team (or at least the one with the most potential) thus far. The separation between them and number two at this point, however, is minimal and one reason why it is far from a given that UNC will win the title this year or even make it to the Final Four.

If I had to pick a (little past midseason) Final Four right now, where the best teams meet in the final, it would be UNC, Maryland, Oklahoma, and Kansas, with UNC and Maryland meeting in the final. (Obviously, straight chalk is pretty rare though.) Kansas has had a bad loss, but I don't put too much stock into right now. Similarly, I don't put too much stock into Villanova. I don't buy any teams from the Big East since that conference was ransacked by the Big 12 and the ACC.
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I guess the point I'm trying to make is not the amount of NBA talent one school puts in the league and the other doesn't. It's more about what one school does with the top talent it gets and what the other doesn't. Coach K has gotten top talent recently and consistently put them all in the NBA after a year - which is how long they were projected to be in college. Roy has gotten 2-4 top talent guys within the past 5-7 years and just hasn't developed them to what they should be, often times having their draft stock drop. On the contrary, whenever K gets a top talent he always puts them in the league with either the same or better draft position than projected out of high school. I think that does go back to coaching.

As for Roy as a coach. He's good, but I don't think he's as great as ppl make him out to be. Personally, I just don't think Roy can win big without the unarguably best team in the NCAA. Those '05 and '09 were far better than any team that year and he won, but outside of those teams he can't take talent equal to the rest of the NCAA and win. This year UNC has no doubt the best team and should win the championship, but I have a feeling they won't simply bc he is the coach. I think if you give K or Izzo the talent UNC has this year they'd be undefeated. This UNC team should be Duke by 12+ this year but who knows if they will. UNC should win everything, but with Roy as the coach I'm not sure if they can. I just think can do better with someone other than him.
 
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#111
#111
kid50 said:
It's a little early to declare him a better pro at this point considering Jabari hasn't even played a full season bc he had a major knee injury last year. Has he not had that injury last he probably would've been rookie of the year. Plus, this year he has been pretty good coming off that injury.
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He isn't a 3, and can't guard the 4 (or anyone). I Just don't see it. Also can't really stretch the Floor ATP


HB is about to get paid in the offseason
 
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#112
#112
volprof said:
We can agree to disagree. I'm of the mind that if you consistently get more top 5 recruits every year you're going to send more guys to the NBA. Pretty simple, in my opinion.
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That's true, but there's a pretty big leap you took from there to, "Haha, recruits think there's player development going on?? They don't realize they're all being tricked into a sham."
 
#113
#113
AV_12 said:
Gotta think of who else Is on his team.

HB could be a solid second or third option elsewhere

He's a better pro than Jabari and has a position
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Probably true, which is why it's weird that playing for Roy had his draft stock lower than Derrick Williams.
 
#114
#114
AV_12 said:
He isn't a 3, and can't guard the 4 (or anyone). I Just don't see it. Also can't really stretch the Floor ATP


HB is about to get paid in the offseason
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You're selling JP way to short on his abilities. He doesn't even have a full-season of NBA experience while coming off major knee surgery. HB has been in the league for what? 3 years now? When JP is in his 3rd year I can guarantee he'll have more than a 10 PPG career average. It's way too early to compare the two, but if you wanna go off numbers alone, JP's are way past where HB's were at this point in his career. As a matter of fact, JP's career numbers are already where HB's are. Sure, JP may not be as good as a defender, but does having one sole position really matter in big scheme of things? I mean, does Lebron even have a legit position?
 
#115
#115
AV_12 said:
Gotta think of who else Is on his team.

HB could be a solid second or third option elsewhere

He's a better pro than Jabari and has a position
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Also, if Barnes is a team's second option, that team will be terrible. You do have to look at who's around him, which tells you that on a legit contender, he's what? 5th?
 
#117
#117
kid50 said:
You're selling JP way to short on his abilities. He doesn't even have a full-season of NBA experience while coming off major knee surgery. HB has been in the league for what? 3 years now? When JP is in his 3rd year I can guarantee he'll have more than a 10 PPG career average. It's way too early to compare the two, but if you wanna go off numbers alone, JP's are way past where HB's were at this point in his career. As a matter of fact, JP's career numbers are already where HB's are. Sure, JP may not be as good as a defender, but does having one sole position really matter in big scheme of things? I mean, does Lebron even have a legit position?
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Different teams/situations but ok
 
#118
#118
VKAman said:
Also, if Barnes is a team's second option, that team will be terrible. You do have to look at who's around him, which tells you that on a legit contender, he's what? 5th?
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Fourth but who's counting. I just think he could average 18 for a team... Maybe not second option, but certainly top 3. Someone is going to pay him be more of a scoring option for them.. We will see.

Would you offer someone 16 mil per year if you only thought their ceiling was a 5th option?
 
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#119
#119
AV_12 said:
Yes. Disappointing with the way he finished


One more year 😄. Him/hicks/Joel/Theo will be solid
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This quote is exactly what every coach tells an elite recruit that is considering UNC.

And for good measure...Harrison Barnes is a narcissistic POS.
 
#120
#120
AV_12 said:
Fourth but who's counting. I just think he could average 18 for a team... Maybe not second option, but certainly top 3. Someone is going to pay him be more of a scoring option for them.. We will see.

Would you offer someone 16 mil per year if you only thought their ceiling was a 5th option?
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He'll probably end up 3rd somewhere. 16 mil with this cap is around DeMarre Carroll money, so it's not like that offer means people think he's a star.

But I think in general we agree; I think he gets maybe 15 a game on a pretty good team (I still think if he's getting 18, the team will suck) and adding value through his shooting and versatility. I don't think he'll ever make an All-Star team, but I think Jabari probably won't either.
 
#121
#121
VKAman said:
He'll probably end up 3rd somewhere. 16 mil with this cap is around DeMarre Carroll money, so it's not like that offer means people think he's a star.

But I think in general we agree; I think he gets maybe 15 a game on a pretty good team (I still think if he's getting 18, the team will suck) and adding value through his shooting and versatility. I don't think he'll ever make an All-Star team, but I think Jabari probably won't either.
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I Agree
 
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