Urban Meyer - Lucky or Great coaching?

#102
#102
Bassmanbruno said:
Now the bashing begins huh? Try insulting my intelligence face to face, not on a message board.

The fact is you came on the a UT board as a Florida fan.. tried to defend your precious Urban Meyer in a long essay. Why would I or anyone else want to hear how great you think he his?

You're trying to say he makes the gunners faster and more effective by using a different scheme on punts which causes more muffed punts... lol. Then you said they are now in better position to recover the muffed punt? You can't control the bounces on the football when someone muffs it so its just lucky if it happens to bounce right to your gunners. Get real.
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This is your first excellent post. And I'd tell you to your face everything I would say on here.

Oh wait, you aren't talking to me? Well it goes for everyone!

(and I just wanted to take the pathetic internet tough guy talk to the next level)

Meet me somewhere, then, punk!
 
#103
#103
I want to warn everyone on this board. I have had great success in the majority of my pugilistic endeavors, most of which end with a guitar to the back of the opponents melon.
 
#104
#104
Bassmanbruno said:
Now the bashing begins huh? Try insulting my intelligence face to face, not on a message board.

The fact is you came on the a UT board as a Florida fan.. tried to defend your precious Urban Meyer in a long essay. Why would I or anyone else want to hear how great you think he his?

You're trying to say he makes the gunners faster and more effective by using a different scheme on punts which causes more muffed punts... lol. Then you said they are now in better position to recover the muffed punt? You can't control the bounces on the football when someone muffs it so its just lucky if it happens to bounce right to your gunners. Get real.
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I know! I know!

Because not everyone on here is a self-absorbed know-it-all and some people actually like to hear opposing points of view rather than just the same ol' same ol' mantra of "Everything is wonderful here at the University of Tennessee and there is no reason to question our coaches or our program. Now, eat your bucket of Ritalin and get some sleep, you sheep, er ... students."
 
#105
#105
Lexvol said:
I want to warn everyone on this board. I have had great success in the majority of my pugilistic endeavors, most of which end with a guitar to the back of the opponents melon.
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Says the former Intercontinental champion. This man beat Ted Dibiase
 
#114
#114
Urban has yet to run his complete offense.

I will be interested to see if he can actually use that offense effectively in the SEC.
 
#116
#116
jamaicagator said:
The fact is that every team has luck every year, but it's only the team that wins it all that seems to have benefitted the most, and so people tend to think they were more lucky than anyone else. All the luck that a team like Baylor might have had doesn't get talked about because they weren't good enough to take advantage of it. Conversely, the best teams are also going to be the best at taking advantage of their luck, and so naturally they'll seem to be the most lucky.

What's more, I think there is a little confusion about what luck really is. When you design your punt coverage in such a way so as to allow your cover guys a clean break down the middle of the field, is it luck then when the punt returner fumbles it and you're right there to recover? When you design your KO coverage to go to one corner every time at a specific depth, and then one day it pays off by setting up the perfect hit that forces a fumble, is that luck? One thing I've learned over two years with coach Meyer is that he is obsessed with being the most invested team on the field and therefore puts a lot of work into all of the little things. Now if you don't see all the work he puts into these facets of the game, you may think it's just luck when the ball just seems to bounce our way, but I think coach Meyer knows it's not luck, and, in fact, he probably hopes that opponents will continue just thinking its luck so that he can maintain the advantage.

I'm thinking specifically back to the UT game in 2005 when the returner dropped the ball and we recovered. I can remember many times when a returned would muff the punt but fall right back on it because our gunners were coming from the outside and weren't really anywhere near the guy. With Meyer's punt scheme, however, we're in much better position. The snapper generally gets a clean break which not only allows us to be in position but can also cause the returner to take his eyes off the ball. When the player fumbled in the UT game, I probably thought it was pretty fortunate for us, but as things like this continued to happen throughout the season more than I could remember it happening in other seasons I realized that it had a lot to do with our unsusual scheme. It also set up well for fake punts, we had a huge one of those against Georgia that year. Now fast-forward to last year's SEC Championship game against Arkansas when we blocked a punt, faked a punt, and also recovered a fumble for a TD in much the same way.

It's no coincidence, and I think this is supported by other numbers. Our punt-return defense ranked 4th nationally last year, and 2nd nationally in 2005. We also set a school record for blocks last year with 8, including the three against USC that may have been the difference in that game. Speaking of which, were those three blocks luck against USC? If it was, the luck certainly continued when we blocked two more against Vanderbilt. Indeed, at Utah Meyer's team when from 2 blocks in his first year to 9 in his second, and at Bowling Green then went from 1 in his first year to 8.

So I think you have to be careful when you talk about luck. It's very easy to talk about how lucky the winner is without having any idea what's really going on behind the scenes. The saying that luck is what happens when perparation meets opportunity certainly seems consistent with Meyer's philosophy. Sure, if the player never fumbles we'd never have the opportunity to recover it, but under Meyer we've been prepared to take advantage of those opportunities when we get them more so than I ever remember. Luck is supposed to be inherently random, but if Meyer's been lucky for 6 straight years across three different programs, maybe it's time to recognize that there's something more there. Depending on your definition, there may or may not be luck, but there's no questioning that there's great coaching.

The bottom line ot me is that if you're going to simply say that we've been really, really lucky and just leave it at that hoping that our luck will run out, be prepared to keep losing.
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So are you saying:
  • Urban Meyer is to luck what Chuck Norris is to street fighting, or
  • Urban Meyer is such a master of the game that he coach players on which direction a football will bounce?
 
#117
#117
General Jack,

I'm afraid you're missing my point. No coach can control which way a ball will bounce, but he can put his players in better position to respond to whatever bounce it does take. If a player muffs a punt return and the punting team's closest cover men a 20 yards up field, the returner will have a much better chance of recovering his muff, even though the ball could bounce in a hundred different ways. If, however, your punt return scheme is designed such that you're much better able to put players near the punt returner as he's fielding the ball, then it'll be that much easier for your team to recover a muff, even though you can never control which way the ball will bounce.

The fact that we have been in the top five in each of the last two years in punt-retern coverage shows that Meyer has indeed been very good at putting his players in position to cover the punt returner, and I believe this same ability has made it much easier for us to recover muffs. This is where the opportunity meets preparation stuff comes in. Muffs happen for everyone. I don't think they happen any more for us than they do for everyone else, but the difference would be that we're in better position to take advantage of them when they happen than other teams are.

Now does that make us more lucky or does it make us better prepared?

Bassmanbruno said:
Now the bashing begins huh? Try insulting my intelligence face to face, not on a message board.

The fact is you came on the a UT board as a Florida fan.. tried to defend your precious Urban Meyer in a long essay. Why would I or anyone else want to hear how great you think he his?

You're trying to say he makes the gunners faster and more effective by using a different scheme on punts which causes more muffed punts... lol. Then you said they are now in better position to recover the muffed punt? You can't control the bounces on the football when someone muffs it so its just lucky if it happens to bounce right to your gunners. Get real.
Click to expand...
I would never dream of insulting you face-to-face, because you seem like the type of person who could be easily provoked into some sort of physical confrontation by such insults, and that's clearly not in either of our interests. That also has nothign to do with the discussion at hand.

The reason why anyone may be interested in reading my post is that they may want to have meaningful discussion related to the initial question, "is coach Meyer a great coach or just lucky?" Some people are interested in hearing opposing views so that they can better evaluate the logic behind their own. You clearly don't seem interested in evaluating your own opinions, so I can see why the concept of listening to a different perspective would be so foreign to you.

You final paragraph indicates to me that you don't fully understand what I'm trying to say. If I thought that you were really interested at all in understanding it, I would attempt to explain it to you more clearly, but that isn't the case. I don't see the point in further explaining my position if you don't have any interest in understanding it. That would just be a waste of time.

utvolpj said:
Please explain what KO scheme Meyer was running on the 1st play of the NC game that made him a genius.
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If having one play go against you prevents you from being a genius, then no one is a genius. This is especially true when this one play occurs in a 27-point victory that earns you a national championship.

I think this would be a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

I will say that Meyer does ask his kick-off guys to try to put the ball in a pretty specific location, which I think is unusual. They're supposed to put the ball around the 5-yard line on the kicker's left. Now perhaps it's unwise for Meyer to do this because it occaisionally results in KOs out of bounds and if the kicker doesn't put it there, the coverage is out of position and this results in long returns. However, when it does work, the coverage is in perfect position to cover the kick and put on a big hit, and when it works perfectly, the defense can even force a fumble. This is what happened against LSU. Again, you can call it luck, but it might not have happened if Meyer hadn't installed this KO scheme.
 
#120
#120
jamaicagator said:
General Jack,

I'm afraid you're missing my point. No coach can control which way a ball will bounce, but he can put his players in better position to respond to whatever bounce it does take. If a player muffs a punt return and the punting team's closest cover men a 20 yards up field, the returner will have a much better chance of recovering his muff, even though the ball could bounce in a hundred different ways. If, however, your punt return scheme is designed such that you're much better able to put players near the punt returner as he's fielding the ball, then it'll be that much easier for your team to recover a muff, even though you can never control which way the ball will bounce.

The fact that we have been in the top five in each of the last two years in punt-retern coverage shows that Meyer has indeed been very good at putting his players in position to cover the punt returner, and I believe this same ability has made it much easier for us to recover muffs. This is where the opportunity meets preparation stuff comes in. Muffs happen for everyone. I don't think they happen any more for us than they do for everyone else, but the difference would be that we're in better position to take advantage of them when they happen than other teams are.

Now does that make us more lucky or does it make us better prepared?
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I'm afraid you, too, missed the point when you took my post seriously. Actually, I thought your original analysis, while a big lengthly - particularly as it related to the gators - was a bit long, but well thought out.
 
#122
#122
jamaicagator said:
General Jack,

I'm afraid you're missing my point. No coach can control which way a ball will bounce, but he can put his players in better position to respond to whatever bounce it does take. If a player muffs a punt return and the punting team's closest cover men a 20 yards up field, the returner will have a much better chance of recovering his muff, even though the ball could bounce in a hundred different ways. If, however, your punt return scheme is designed such that you're much better able to put players near the punt returner as he's fielding the ball, then it'll be that much easier for your team to recover a muff, even though you can never control which way the ball will bounce.

The fact that we have been in the top five in each of the last two years in punt-retern coverage shows that Meyer has indeed been very good at putting his players in position to cover the punt returner, and I believe this same ability has made it much easier for us to recover muffs. This is where the opportunity meets preparation stuff comes in. Muffs happen for everyone. I don't think they happen any more for us than they do for everyone else, but the difference would be that we're in better position to take advantage of them when they happen than other teams are.

Now does that make us more lucky or does it make us better prepared?

I would never dream of insulting you face-to-face, because you seem like the type of person who could be easily provoked into some sort of physical confrontation by such insults, and that's clearly not in either of our interests. That also has nothign to do with the discussion at hand.

The reason why anyone may be interested in reading my post is that they may want to have meaningful discussion related to the initial question, "is coach Meyer a great coach or just lucky?" Some people are interested in hearing opposing views so that they can better evaluate the logic behind their own. You clearly don't seem interested in evaluating your own opinions, so I can see why the concept of listening to a different perspective would be so foreign to you.

You final paragraph indicates to me that you don't fully understand what I'm trying to say. If I thought that you were really interested at all in understanding it, I would attempt to explain it to you more clearly, but that isn't the case. I don't see the point in further explaining my position if you don't have any interest in understanding it. That would just be a waste of time.

If having one play go against you prevents you from being a genius, then no one is a genius. This is especially true when this one play occurs in a 27-point victory that earns you a national championship.

I think this would be a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

I will say that Meyer does ask his kick-off guys to try to put the ball in a pretty specific location, which I think is unusual. They're supposed to put the ball around the 5-yard line on the kicker's left. Now perhaps it's unwise for Meyer to do this because it occaisionally results in KOs out of bounds and if the kicker doesn't put it there, the coverage is out of position and this results in long returns. However, when it does work, the coverage is in perfect position to cover the kick and put on a big hit, and when it works perfectly, the defense can even force a fumble. This is what happened against LSU. Again, you can call it luck, but it might not have happened if Meyer hadn't installed this KO scheme.
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You sir... are sadly mistaken again... and once again.. big wall of texts are appreciated very much.

I would *LOVE* to hear opposing views on the subject.. so don't be so ignorant... why talk about my bias when you are the one who is biased as well in the opposite way as me? Urban Meyer is Florida's coach and you are a Florida fan... I don't feel your opinion is *any* more relevant than any other UT fan on here swearing by his mass amounts of luck.

Also.. I had NO idea it was some big secret to get your players as close to the ball as possible on punt coverages! Mr. Urban Meyer must of come up with something big here! Call the press! Anyone who strives not to be NEAR the punt returner doesn't deserve to be coaching. Meyer isn't doing anything more than the other coaches... I haven't seen special teams change in awhile except for more rugby punts and that continually going offside by Wisconsin(maybe? not sure who it was) to run out the clock on a kickoff. Urban did not come up with something new here unless he found some complex math formula to calculate the bounce of the ball on any given occasion. /Ends the big wall of text made famous by jamaicagator

Once again, go ahead and attempt to insult me over a message board if it makes you feel any more manly, have at it.
 
#124
#124
As much as I hate to say it Urban Meyer is a pretty darn good ball coach. I think someone said well didnt the gators go 8-5,7-5,etc. Well look what happened when Meyer got their. IMO this thread is absolutly rid. but what do I know. Come sept.15 we will find out who is the better team this year!
 
#125
#125
TennVols423 said:
As much as I hate to say it Urban Meyer is a pretty darn good ball coach. I think someone said well didnt the gators go 8-5,7-5,etc. Well look what happened when Meyer got their. IMO this thread is absolutly rid. but what do I know. Come sept.15 we will find out who is the better team this year!
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which will be GOOD OL ROCKY TOP:shades:
 
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