Vaccine or not?

#3,527
#3,527
AthensVol2007 said:
Everyone who’s scared of catching this. It’ll die when the media stops reporting on it. It was literally a non-issue during the 2020 summer protests when EVERY media outlet pulled their case counter chyron off the screen for weeks. As soon as something better or more sensational comes along they’ll move to something else. These threads are examples in and of themselves; they’ve been on fire the last week or 2 since the new masking advice came out.
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Yea and Trump said it would go away after the election. I don’t gaf about chyrons on news channels. All I know is what I see in my day to day in my community. Just saw a 24 year old, perfectly healthy, no co-morbidities, intubated today in the ICU. He’s next to the 28 year old that was perfectly healthy pre-covid. Both unvaccinated. We have an ultrasound tech in our office that’s anti-vax that had to cancel all her upcoming appointments because her entire unvaccinated family has now tested positive. Cases in children are rising in FL, and this is before school starts and flu season. Thankfully they are still low, but it’s a concerning trend for a population that has fewer treatment options than adults. We just spent all day trying to explain the vaccine to patients who believe the dumbest **** about the vaccine so I’m sorry if I’m a little over hearing about how it’s nothing. A year ago healthcare workers were heroes, now we don’t know what we’re talking about but somebody on YouTube does. And DeathSentence immediately turned his little tantrum into a fundraising pitch, but I’m sure he’s concerned about the citizens he has a duty to protect.
 
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#3,528
#3,528
VolinMichigan said:
Yea and Trump said it would go away after the election. I don’t gaf about chyrons on news channels. All I know is what I see in my day to day in my community. Just saw a 24 year old, perfectly healthy, no co-morbidities, intubated today in the ICU. He’s next to the 28 year old that was perfectly healthy pre-covid. Both unvaccinated. We have an ultrasound tech in our office that’s anti-vax that had to cancel all her upcoming appointments because her entire unvaccinated family has now tested positive. Cases in children are rising in FL, and this is before school starts and flu season. Thankfully they are still low, but it’s a concerning trend for a population that has fewer treatment options than adults. We just spent all day trying to explain the vaccine to patients who believe the dumbest **** about the vaccine so I’m sorry if I’m a little over hearing about how it’s nothing. A year ago healthcare workers were heroes, now we don’t know what we’re talking about but somebody on YouTube does. And DeathSentence immediately turned his little tantrum into a fundraising pitch, but I’m sure he’s concerned about the citizens he has a duty to protect.
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#3,529
#3,529
VolinMichigan said:
Thanks for not addressing my point. A lot of anti maskers examples are dependent on people actually wearing masks and still transmitting or contracting the virus. Setting aside vaccination, do you think pointing to places like Alabama and Louisiana, where a large % of the population aren’t going to wear a mask anyway despite a mandate is a rock solid example of why masks don’t work?
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Should the fact that the large majority of people do not and will not wear masks correctly be a factor in determining whether mask mandates have any benefit?
 
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#3,531
#3,531
DuckInAPen said:
I've never used tobacco, and I warn my children against its dangers, so, if you want a ban imposed on its use, you'll encounter no strong opposition from me (though I would not actively support such a ban). There's an important distinction, however, -- one intuitive, I think, to most Americans -- between risky behavior that endangers only the one who elects to engage in it and risky behavior that endangers others who have not agreed to assume its risks. There's also a very significant distinction between that which threatens to kill within days or weeks and that which threatens to kill over a period of decades.
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And it boils down to personal freedoms vs common decency.
 
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#3,532
#3,532
vols4sure said:
Should the fact that the large majority of people do not and will not wear masks correctly be a factor in determining whether mask mandates have any benefit?
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Now you are asking that question that shall not be asked. Do you decide whether a restriction makes sense based on compliance, or do you decide on a path and enforce compliance? If people in positions of authority believe in mask mandates, they really need to rely on education ... far easier to sell something if people believe the reason behind it is honest and has a positive outcome. And to make it work the education needs to explain the basics of doing it right. Authoritarians whether in business, government, or education rarely ever get that right. Of course, none of that covers the mask sh!tshow itself ... ease of use (or not), form and fashion, effectiveness, cost, availability, etc.

The other thing that problems like this need is blame - something to get collectively behind, but Trump was attacked when he mentioned China, and biden certainly isn't going to start blow back on China. For that reason the government will continue to look ineffectual and more like a victim than an entity with an answer to anything and some resolve to carry it through; it will, therefore, undermine, anything positive it does.
 
#3,533
#3,533
vols4sure said:
Should the fact that the large majority of people do not and will not wear masks correctly be a factor in determining whether mask mandates have any benefit?
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And that’s a fair point. Maybe we’ve reached the point where mandates just don’t matter in certain areas of the country anymore. Doesn’t mean mask wearing shouldn’t be encouraged by state or local gov, or prohibited by them either. I still believe that an employer should absolutely be able to require vaccination and mask wearing. And business owners should absolutely be able to have mask policies and deny service to customers who won’t adhere.
 
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#3,534
#3,534
VolinMichigan said:
Thanks for not addressing my point. A lot of anti maskers examples are dependent on people actually wearing masks and still transmitting or contracting the virus. Setting aside vaccination, do you think pointing to places like Alabama and Louisiana, where a large % of the population aren’t going to wear a mask anyway despite a mandate is a rock solid example of why masks don’t work?
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Masks work the best when they are N95 or better and worn properly. The effectiveness goes downhill from there. Why they work better on exhale than inhale is simple goojul work.
 
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#3,537
#3,537
82_VOL_83 said:
Masks work the best when they are N95 or better and worn properly. The effectiveness goes downhill from there. Why they work better on exhale than inhale is simple goojul work.
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Calculus and physics. They contain droplets on the way out - the droplets are trapped essentially. The ones on the other side have a lot of room to roam, and may reduce in size due to evaporation, but the spread shouldn't mean good masks are ineffective on the inhale. Remember also the eyes are generally uncovered and the tears drain into the nasal passages - more ways in than out.
 
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#3,538
#3,538
82_VOL_83 said:
Masks work the best when they are N95 or better and worn properly. The effectiveness goes downhill from there. Why they work better on exhale than inhale is simple goojul work.
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Yea, but then one has to account for viral load. The way I think of it, N95's protect oneself to the degree of claimed filtration, which is only effective at a 95% rate to a certain micron, which is much larger than a Covid particulate. One still has too consume the same volume of air to breathe, so one is still sucking in as much volume of "contaiminated air" as otherwise. The droplet capture is nonsense IMO as well.

Those cheap masks dont do squat unless one was to sneeze or cough only impacting the radius of spread. Think of your HVAC filter and say I want to stack the cheapo fiberglass ones. No better than a single.
 
#3,541
#3,541
NEO said:
I am not trying to be mean but that dude isn’t exactly skinny.

It does seem to impact overweight people more and I bet he is atleast 30 over.
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I wanted to say that but didn’t have the guts. I feel bad for him and hope recovers but it’s disingenuous to pretend that he’s healthy and an example of what could happen to all of us
 
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#3,544
#3,544
lukeneyland said:
I wanted to say that but didn’t have the guts. I feel bad for him and hope recovers but it’s disingenuous to pretend that he’s healthy and an example of what could happen to all of us
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And yet we have innumerable fellow citizens no less obese than he is; before this pandemic we wouldn't have expected them to die nearly so young.

I'm troubled that the deaths of people who would previously have been expected to live much longer lives are now so frequently brushed off as the inevitable result of a "pre-existing condition" (often one that affects millions if not tens of millions of our countrymen). I suspect that many do this as a way of "whistling past the graveyard," but I fear that quite a few who do so are really social Darwinists at heart.
 
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#3,546
#3,546
DuckInAPen said:
And yet we have innumerable fellow citizens no less obese than he is; before this pandemic we wouldn't have expected them to die nearly so young.

I'm troubled that the deaths of people who would previously have been expected to live much longer lives are now so frequently brushed off as the inevitable result of a "pre-existing condition" (often one that affects millions if not tens of millions of our countrymen). I suspect that many do this as a way of "whistling past the graveyard," but I fear that quite a few who do so are really social Darwinists at heart.
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It’s not about me thinking that he somehow deserves it. It’s sad, it really is. I made my comment because for someone like him it might make sense to get the vaccine. But for a sizable part of the population it might not. We’re on the vaccine thread, so most of what I say relates to my opinion on the efficacy of the vaccine as it is currently prescribed
 
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#3,547
#3,547
lukeneyland said:
39-year old Utah woman dies after getting second dose of COVID-19 vaccine - Drug Discovery and Development

I find it interesting how quick the state is to dismiss any correlation between a seemingly healthy 39 year old woman’s death and the fact that she was vaccinated days prior. I’ve yet to see anyone posit any other contributing factor. Am I to except that she naturally dropped dead? Doesn’t seem probable.
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Yes there are ways for a perfectly health 39 year old to drop dead. Over 100 million people have gotten the vaccine. You will hear anecdotal stories of people dying shortly after the shot. Likely due to them dying for reasons completely unrelated to the vaccine, as when you have a sample size that enormous, there will be deaths that happen regardless of whether they get the vaccine or not.
 
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#3,548
#3,548
volfanhill said:
How is that comment relevant? No one said Trump is the only authoritarian. Quit being a victim.
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Because one of the most common refrains from the “intellectuals” on the left was that Trump was going to turn this country into a totalitarian do as I say or else type of state. Yet here is one of their own embodying that very thing. Victim? I don’t see where you are getting that from, but anything for a petty stab at someone on the internet
 
#3,549
#3,549
Persian Vol said:
Yes there are ways for a perfectly health 39 year old to drop dead. Over 100 million people have gotten the vaccine. You will hear anecdotal stories of people dying shortly after the shot. Likely due to them dying for reasons completely unrelated to the vaccine, as when you have a sample size that enormous, there will be deaths that happen regardless of whether they get the vaccine or not.
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That’s possible, but at this point I think it’s impossible to definitively say. I don’t entirely plant myself in the vaccine is bad camp. But the risk reward for someone in my demographic just doesn’t make sense. And that is my issue. At this point in time with the long term unknowns that exist it is unwise to prescribe the vaccine to everyone regardless of their risk level. I pushed for my grandparents to get vaccinated because the risk reward made sense, for healthy young people it just doesn’t. Anyway back to the Utah lady, you don’t find any of that at least slightly suspicious. I find it odd how quick the authorities were to tell us what it wasn’t, but to my knowledge they never really came up with a plausible alternative cause. Seems a bit narrow minded
 
#3,550
#3,550
Persian Vol said:
Yes there are ways for a perfectly health 39 year old to drop dead. Over 100 million people have gotten the vaccine. You will hear anecdotal stories of people dying shortly after the shot. Likely due to them dying for reasons completely unrelated to the vaccine, as when you have a sample size that enormous, there will be deaths that happen regardless of whether they get the vaccine or not.
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I think what you've written above, Persian Vol, is entirely correct and is the best way, in aggregate, to look at these unfortunate cases.

I feel compelled, though, to say in lukeneyland's defense that he's experienced a personal loss such as makes his question about this particular case perfectly reasonable and understandably urgent for him; I expect that, were I in his shoes, I'd have the same question and doubt.

For the record, I'm a strong proponent of vaccination against covid. My wife and I had ourselves and our eldest child vaccinated as soon as we could, and we hope to have our younger children vaccinated as soon as they're eligible (assuming, of course, that the data that will soon be published prove, as I expect, favorable).
 
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