Vaccine or not?

#9,927
#9,927
DynaLo said:
A very basic premise of science has always been finding answers to questions and questioning the answers found, so getting told to “just follow the science” or “don’t question the science” should set off huge alarm bells in anyone with functional brain cells.
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I think the point he was trying to make is once the science is verifiable and moves out of the realm of hypothesis, it's stupid to guard your own ignorance in the face of it. Not EVERYTHING in science belongs in the "we must question it always" category. And while I fully realize that scientists are merely fallible human beings, when it comes to matters of science I would more quickly take the word of an award winning astrophysicist than the word of some random internet jockey.
 
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#9,928
#9,928
Brave Volunteer said:
I think the point he was trying to make is once the science is verifiable and moves out of the realm of hypothesis, it's stupid to guard your own ignorance in the face of it. Not EVERYTHING in science belongs in the "we must question it always" category. And while I fully realize that scientists are merely fallible human beings, when it comes to matters of science I would more quickly take the word of an award winning astrophysicist than the word of some random internet jockey.
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Well my Dad always said my first spoken word was “why”. So I’d actually like to see both sides of the science openly presented so I can make a fully informed decision on things that have a direct bearing on my health and well-being and that of my family. I’ve never been a lemming nor a lab rat and I don’t see that changing in my lifetime.

Telling me to do something because “we” said so and you should blindly trust “us” without answering my “why”, is the quickest way to get me questioning the motives behind it and digging for information.
 
#9,929
#9,929
Brave Volunteer said:
I think the point he was trying to make is once the science is verifiable and moves out of the realm of hypothesis, it's stupid to guard your own ignorance in the face of it. Not EVERYTHING in science belongs in the "we must question it always" category. And while I fully realize that scientists are merely fallible human beings, when it comes to matters of science I would more quickly take the word of an award winning astrophysicist than the word of some random internet jockey.
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Interesting..

Now... how do you define who is 'ignorant'?
 
#9,930
#9,930
The vast majority of people don't understand how to understand the "science" and think "research" is looking up information.

Reading and understanding abstracts and studies is not necessarily the easiest thing in the world to do. And there's a bit of specialized training that isn't handled in primary or secondary school outside of a handful of the country's most extremely focused STEM academies. If you want to understand p values and statistical power you need at least college quantitative methodology or statistics or know where to look online for quality information.

Many of the same outlets that complain (and frankly, rightfully so) that the information is locked behind a culture of gatekeeping and intellectual snobbery end up becoming a form of gatekeepers and intellectual snobs themselves. "We're the only place you can trust! No one else is giving you this information!" is a sure sign to run the hell away.

Journals, universities, research firms, etc need to start releasing two sets of abstracts: one written in journal speak and one written so that it is readable by and comprehensible to the average high school junior and older. The public facing abstract should be accessible without a paywall, too, for those who don't have research library privileges.

But that's just my two cents.
 
#9,931
#9,931
AshG said:
The vast majority of people don't understand how to understand the "science" and think "research" is looking up information.

Reading and understanding abstracts and studies is not necessarily the easiest thing in the world to do. And there's a bit of specialized training that isn't handled in primary or secondary school outside of a handful of the country's most extremely focused STEM academies. If you want to understand p values and statistical power you need at least college quantitative methodology or statistics or know where to look online for quality information.

Many of the same outlets that complain (and frankly, rightfully so) that the information is locked behind a culture of gatekeeping and intellectual snobbery end up becoming a form of gatekeepers and intellectual snobs themselves. "We're the only place you can trust! No one else is giving you this information!" is a sure sign to run the hell away.

Journals, universities, research firms, etc need to start releasing two sets of abstracts: one written in journal speak and one written so that it is readable by and comprehensible to the average high school junior and older. The public facing abstract should be accessible without a paywall, too, for those who don't have research library privileges.

But that's just my two cents.
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But how then would the arrogant academicians look down upon Joe 6 pack? Not that I disagree with you, but academia has a level of arrogance that they MUST maintain or else... as Dr Venkman (I believe) said "We've got to keep our phoney baloney jobs".

Oh... my bad... It was governor Lepetomane

 
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#9,932
#9,932
SpaceCoastVol said:
But how then would the arrogant academicians look down upon Joe 6 pack? Not that I disagree with you, but academia has a level of arrogance that they MUST maintain or else... as Dr Venkman (I believe) said "We've got to keep our phoney baloney jobs".

Oh... my bad... It was governor Lepetomane

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I was blessed to have a dissertation committee member who made me explain my research in three different ways: using language I would use with another researcher, using language I would use with an education professional without a research background, and using language I would use explaining it to an old buddy over a beer.

I found that assignment extremely helpful.

Kurt Vonnegut, in his book Cat's Cradle, had a character comment that "If you can't explain the research to a twelve year old, you don't really understand what you're talking about."

Yeah, there are going to be difficult things to word in an understandable way, but I believe it's worth the effort. Academia doesn't need to be some unapproachable ivory tower. And maybe that's why I'm having trouble climbing the ladder: I don't like the games.
 
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#9,933
#9,933
Eldest daughter is actually a scientist. Any questions I may have that I can’t find the answer to, I ship her way for research and future discussion.😁
 
#9,934
#9,934
SpaceCoastVol said:
Interesting..

Now... how do you define who is 'ignorant'?
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I'll give you an example. We know the earth is spherical. We know it is. We K N O W it is! But there are still groups of idiots out there who believe we are being lied to and that its flat. They are a group that I would most certainly categorize as either completely ignorant of the evidence or they have been aptly informed to the contrary and they choose to guard their ignorance because to some, it's more important to be right in their own minds than to accept the reality that is in clear contrast to their own bronze age ideology.
 
#9,935
#9,935
Brave Volunteer said:
I think the point he was trying to make is once the science is verifiable and moves out of the realm of hypothesis, it's stupid to guard your own ignorance in the face of it. Not EVERYTHING in science belongs in the "we must question it always" category. And while I fully realize that scientists are merely fallible human beings, when it comes to matters of science I would more quickly take the word of an award winning astrophysicist than the word of some random internet jockey.
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The science has been fluctuating throughout this entire ordeal with new data rolling in every day. No, the science is not settled. Hell, the science with the vaccines isn't settled if you only have one FDA approved and you have the FDA and the White House disagreeing on the need for boosters.
 
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#9,936
#9,936
SpaceCoastVol said:
But how then would the arrogant academicians look down upon Joe 6 pack? Not that I disagree with you, but academia has a level of arrogance that they MUST maintain or else... as Dr Venkman (I believe) said "We've got to keep our phoney baloney jobs".

Oh... my bad... It was governor Lepetomane

Click to expand...

Do they REALLY "look down" upon Joe Sixpack or is that what Joe Sixpack projects on academia due to his or her insecurities over their own limited knowledge about certain topics? If everyone cared more about educating themselves and have an open mindedness towards others who just might have a better grasp on certain topics instead of feeling threatened by them, we would all be better off instead of having this "I believe what I believe what I believe and Ill go to my grave believing" nonsense.
 
#9,937
#9,937
Ok, flat earth folks are an absolute hoot to have a conversation with. The “logic” behind some of their beliefs and their “solutions” to the sphere science elicit a pure puzzled puppy response from me every time.🥴🤣
 
#9,938
#9,938
DynaLo said:
Ok, flat earth folks are an absolute hoot to have a conversation with. The “logic” behind some of their beliefs and their “solutions” to the sphere science elicit a pure puzzled puppy response from me every time.🥴🤣
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It terrifies me to know that in 2021 there are people who actually believe this and not just tribesman who live in grass huts in the middle of the Amazon.
 
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#9,939
#9,939
LouderVol said:
Then keep pressuring to fire them. That will really help.

If there is one group that shouldnt need any convincing on getting vaxxed it would be the nurses. They are up to their eyeballs in it each day. They know the risks, see the consquences, deal with the worst, and are exposed day in and out. They also have some sort of medical background, and access to more information that the average American.

I have no idea why outside people think the nurses are ever going to be pressured into changing their minds. Or are right to try and push them.
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I’m not changing my mind. Neither are several others. If hospital don’t push back against this mandate they are shooting themselves in the foot…. Again.
 
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#9,940
#9,940
Rasputin_Vol said:
The science has been fluctuating throughout this entire ordeal with new data rolling in every day. No, the science is not settled. Hell, the science with the vaccines isn't settled if you only have one FDA approved and you have the FDA and the White House disagreeing on the need for boosters.
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Why does FDA approval look very much like a marketing campaign for propaganda driven acceptance?
They approve something for future drug market availability, under a new name, with no formulation changes, that I have seen yet, so essentially it’s using identical ingredients, but it’s still in trials and will be for a while. Why? Why approve it now, at this specific point in time? Why push the approval process through so adamantly with incomplete data?
Is this being done to confuse the uninformed public into accepting something “new” with a name that doesn’t carry the current adverse reaction stigma? They’re all changing their shot names for approval.
Is it because folks were pushing back on the shots with objections to being only FDA authorized under EUA and not actually approved? Are they trying to close mandate loopholes that the EUA provided?
🤔
 
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#9,941
#9,941
Brave Volunteer said:
I'll give you an example. We know the earth is spherical. We know it is. We K N O W it is! But there are still groups of idiots out there who believe we are being lied to and that its flat. They are a group that I would most certainly categorize as either completely ignorant of the evidence or they have been aptly informed to the contrary and they choose to guard their ignorance because to some, it's more important to be right in their own minds than to accept the reality that is in clear contrast to their own bronze age ideology.
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I'm not a statistics guy. But those flat earthers are outliers. "Science" doesn't depend on them buying in. You need the 1st... maybe 2nd... standard deviation to make your 'science' into reality, and subsequently, power. It is the subtlety of how the argument is spun that does it. Of course as we have all witnessed with the Chinese flu pandemic, fear is a powerful spinning device as well. I find it really interesting that you use references to long ago times while relating them to current ones. As if anyone that doesn't buy into the pandemic narrative is probably ready to use leeches and other medieval technologies to fight this thing. I'm not sure if that is your intent, but the "science" of these 'vaccines' is nowhere near being settled nor absolute. Those that have seen/heard about Ivermectin or other alternative treatments and are deciding to use them rather than these 'vaccines' are hardly the flat earthers they are made out to be.
 
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#9,942
#9,942
Brave Volunteer said:
Do they REALLY "look down" upon Joe Sixpack or is that what Joe Sixpack projects on academia due to his or her insecurities over their own limited knowledge about certain topics? If everyone cared more about educating themselves and have an open mindedness towards others who just might have a better grasp on certain topics instead of feeling threatened by them, we would all be better off instead of having this "I believe what I believe what I believe and Ill go to my grave believing" nonsense.
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Yeah, I do think the academics look down on Joe 6 pack. How else can you explain the rhetoric that Joe is just a stupid plumber or electrician and not a PhD in 15th century poetry? Sorry. I couldn't hold Stephen Hawking's interest for more than about 15 seconds before he would be bored. Yeah that is an extreme example, and yes I know he's dead, but he is the 'smartest' person I can think of at the moment. Liberal collegiate academia is all about letting you know what an idiot you are comparatively. I saw it all thru my 'education'. And I have said this before, but college doesn't prepare you for Jack **** when it comes to real life education. All college does is prove that you are trainable and gives you very basic knowledge of the subject at hand. (Change my mind). WRT open mindedness, that is true to a certain level, but I don't care what the subject it, it can only be dumbed down so much. The issue of being open minded is an interesting subject, and that gulf is getting wider with each passing day. Orange man bad, remember? His 'followers'..... you know the 'cult'..... are all idiots, amiright?

/rant
 
#9,943
#9,943
NurseGoodVol said:
I’m not changing my mind. Neither are several others. If hospital don’t push back against this mandate they are shooting themselves in the foot…. Again.
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I'm not changing my mind either. I support you 1000% This country is being run by bullies right now, and it will go on as long as we allow it.
 
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#9,944
#9,944
Brave Volunteer said:
It terrifies me to know that in 2021 there are people who actually believe this and not just tribesman who live in grass huts in the middle of the Amazon.
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I am more terrified that there are people that actually voted for Joe Biden... AND think he was a good alternative.
 
#9,946
#9,946
SpaceCoastVol said:
Yeah, I do think the academics look down on Joe 6 pack. How else can you explain the rhetoric that Joe is just a stupid plumber or electrician and not a PhD in 15th century poetry? Sorry. I couldn't hold Stephen Hawking's interest for more than about 15 seconds before he would be bored. Yeah that is an extreme example, and yes I know he's dead, but he is the 'smartest' person I can think of at the moment. Liberal collegiate academia is all about letting you know what an idiot you are comparatively. I saw it all thru my 'education'. And I have said this before, but college doesn't prepare you for Jack **** when it comes to real life education. All college does is prove that you are trainable and gives you very basic knowledge of the subject at hand. (Change my mind). WRT open mindedness, that is true to a certain level, but I don't care what the subject it, it can only be dumbed down so much. The issue of being open minded is an interesting subject, and that gulf is getting wider with each passing day. Orange man bad, remember? His 'followers'..... you know the 'cult'..... are all idiots, amiright?

/rant
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You met Stephen Hawking?
 
#9,949
#9,949
Rasputin_Vol said:
Well the answer that the Covidians will give you is that preventative measures like wearing masks, social distancing and hand sanitizing have minimized the flu...

I kid you not.
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That’s the interesting thing. The flu has disappeared. Unless you think people like @kiddiedoc are either morons or they’re in the vast conspiracy to make the flu count as Covid19. I don’t think he’s either. Everyone I’ve asked here and elsewhere that’s in the medical feild has said essentially the same thing. Not just the flu but everything is down. RSV….common cold….everything.

I’ve asked Kiddiedoc several times about the flu at his office. I know he’s said Covid is down from 10-12 a day to 2-3. But he’s yet to respond to my question about the flu.
 
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