Vaccine or not?

#14,851
#14,851
DC_Vol said:
The most local level is the individual level. Which is exactly where it should reside.
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In the absence of external forces interfering like the asshat currently in the WH I’d hope that any Governor or state house would remain quiet on forcing any decision related to COVID vaccines. It’s a personal health decision as you are saying.
 
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#14,852
#14,852
utvolpj said:
Why does the state get to override local govt, school boards, businesses, etc? Taking it to the local level is way preferable to state or fed
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On this same premise why didn’t we leave the decision on who to serve food to or what bathroom to use to the local municipalities and individual businesses (don’t interpret this as an endorsement of segregation)? The market would sink or soar those businesses and municipalities and everyone would be free to choose where they live and where they shop. Aside from the morality piece, you can’t readily access groceries, schools or retail needs if you have to travel 5 counties before you hit one that caters to all races. Similarly, how would families acquire groceries readily if vaccine passports or masks mandates are implemented in their home county/city and all counties within an hour plus radius? I get what you’re saying in terms of a mandate of non-enforcement is the same as a mandate of enforcement but I just don’t see it as a flip side of the same coin. One takes all choice away from the individual, one empowers all individuals to make their own choice. These FL businesses/restaurants that are pro-passports and pro-mask won’t admit it, but their bottom lines are going to be infinitely better with DeSanti’s ruling than they otherwise would. Now to that point, he could’ve let them implement it themselves and let them reap what they sow.
 
#14,853
#14,853
AthensVol2007 said:
On this same premise why didn’t we leave the decision on who to serve food to or what bathroom to use to the local municipalities and individual businesses (don’t interpret this as an endorsement of segregation)? The market would sink or soar those businesses and municipalities and everyone would be free to choose where they live and where they shop. Aside from the morality piece, you can’t readily access groceries, schools or retail needs if you have to travel 5 counties before you hit one that caters to all races. Similarly, how would families acquire groceries readily if vaccine passports or masks mandates are implemented in their home county/city and all counties within an hour plus radius? I get what you’re saying in terms of a mandate of non-enforcement is the same as a mandate of enforcement but I just don’t see it as a flip side of the same coin. One takes all choice away from the individual, one empowers all individuals to make their own choice. These FL businesses/restaurants that are pro-passports and pro-mask won’t admit it, but their bottom lines are going to be infinitely better with DeSanti’s ruling than they otherwise would. Now to that point, he could’ve let them implement it themselves and let them reap what they sow.
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I'm all for leaving these decisions to individuals and business owners. Your last sentience is what should have been done. Instead we got an authoritarian state response to our authoritarian fed edict. No one is empowered when one choice is mandated and the other banned
 
#14,854
#14,854
utvolpj said:
I'm all for leaving these decisions to individuals and business owners. Your last sentience is what should have been done. Instead we got an authoritarian state response to our authoritarian fed edict. No one is empowered when one choice is mandated and the other banned
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Except those who want to wear masks and get vaccinated are still free to do so. He didn’t prevent anyone from keeping themselves protected how they saw fit; he kept one individual from managing how another individual should (or shouldn’t) keep themselves protected. Why does the local gov’t or school board get to decide what’s in my kids (or my) best interest?
 
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#14,856
#14,856
AthensVol2007 said:
Except those who want to wear masks and get vaccinated are still free to do so. He didn’t prevent anyone from keeping themselves protected how they saw fit; he kept one individual from managing how another individual should (or shouldn’t) keep themselves protected. Why does the local gov’t or school board get to decide what’s in my kids (or my) best interest?
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Why does the governor get to decide that? The ban overrides those who know their people and situations on the ground better than the federal government and they were duly elected by those people to lead them. It prevents business owners from making decisions they believe will protect their employees and business.
 
#14,859
#14,859
utvolpj said:
Why does the governor get to decide that? The ban overrides those who know their people and situations on the ground better than the federal government and they were duly elected by those people to lead them. It prevents business owners from making decisions they believe will protect their employees and business.
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If this was a condition of employment prior to employment and stated up front sure. If instead it’s all coming in after the fact like this whole 💩 show then maybe the employer should keep their pie hole shut too
 
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#14,860
#14,860
utvolpj said:
Why does the governor get to decide that? The ban overrides those who know their people and situations on the ground better than the federal government and they were duly elected by those people to lead them. It prevents business owners from making decisions they believe will protect their employees and business.
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Their employees can get the vaccine and wear the mask; they’re protected. A private business shouldn’t be able to make mandated health decisions for their employees either. That’s in essence what DeSantis told them. Again if we can’t discriminate on hiring or deny admittance based on race, sexual orientation, political beliefs, age, sex or anything else why do business’s, schools etc get to do it based on one’s health decisions?
 
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#14,861
#14,861
AthensVol2007 said:
Their employees can get the vaccine and wear the mask; they’re protected. A private business shouldn’t be able to make mandated health decisions for their employees either. That’s in essence what DeSantis told them. Again if we can’t discriminate on hiring or deny admittance based on race, sexual orientation, political beliefs, age, sex or anything else why do business’s, schools etc get to do it based on one’s health decisions?
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And Iwould add that masks and the jab are ineffective as well, Desantis believes in real science not fear mongering pseudo science like Dr Fraudci
 
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#14,862
#14,862
AthensVol2007 said:
Their employees can get the vaccine and wear the mask; they’re protected. A private business shouldn’t be able to make mandated health decisions for their employees either. That’s in essence what DeSantis told them. Again if we can’t discriminate on hiring or deny admittance based on race, sexual orientation, political beliefs, age, sex or anything else why do business’s, schools etc get to do it based on one’s health decisions?
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DeSantis mandated how a business must act just like the feds are trying. Two sides of the same coin
 
#14,863
#14,863
utvolpj said:
DeSantis mandated how a business must act just like the feds are trying. Two sides of the same coin
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Mandating that a business can’t force vaccines or masks on patrons or employees is not the same. Because in one scenario the individual still has the choice to do the other thing. An enforceable mask mandate or vaccine mandate leaves no alternative. Removing the power of a business or entity to mandate a personal health decision is not the same as mandating said health decision.

If the topic at hand being discussed does it change the validity of the same coin line of thinking? If the Federal gov’t came out and said you must make all employees participate in the 5 daily prayers of Islam (or do 3 rain-dances a day to keep it secular) and the governor said you can’t MAKE them do that (not that you or they CAN’t do it voluntarily) would we say the Governor overstepped his bounds? Plug anything else in, so it’s not a topic of church and state and I don’t see how they don’t have that power.
 
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#14,864
#14,864
NorthDallas40 said:
You DID defend a hypothetical argument. You provided a legislation act you claimed as a basis granting them power to do this… even though they used a completely different act.

You are now trying to shift the argument to an irrelevant point. “Oh I’m just saying does it matter who told you to get it if you still had to get it.” That’s patently stupid as hell since the issue is if an entity is forcing you to do something while not having the power to do so, and then an entity which has actually been granted that power by SCOTUS rulings says no you don’t have to do that, then your non sequitur hot take that your trying to shift to is irrelevant. It absolutely matters whom is forcing you to get it once the entities have competing stances and you know it.

Edit: and it pleases me that my emojis are having the desired effect. Here have another 😈
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Pointing out the existence of a fact isn't a defense of it, its an acknowledgment of reality.

Keep tilting at windmills and owning the argument no one else is having.
 
#14,865
#14,865
Septic said:
Pointing out the existence of a fact isn't a defense of it, its an acknowledgment of reality.

Keep tilting at windmills and owning the argument no one else is having.
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A fact?! Oh so I should be able to look thru the three mandate appeals and find where they are granted this authority by the PHA.

…

Nope! Just the stupid OSHA act stuff! But I’m sure you know more about it than the admin lawyers preparing the briefs and defense strategy 🤡

This wind mill required no lances it was stillborn in pure dumbassery.
 
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