Vaccine or not?

#15,101
#15,101
LouderVol said:
No I am suggesting our society, including you, care more about compliance, than safety.

If you cared about safety, you wouldn't mock those who died or got seriously sick at all. Regardless of vaccine status.

However, if you only care about compliance ,with a vaccine that isnt a 100% guarentee, it makes far more sense for you to mock those who didnt get vaccinated but still got sick. While not mocking those who got the vaccine and get sick. The only thing that changes, and thus can be mocked, is their vaccine status.

I would consider anyone considering anything other than dirrect medical advice from their doctor on their vaccine status to be sheep. And that's vaxxed or unvaxxed.
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I don't give a rip about the sheep/compliance trope that's been foisted. I can see the data and understand that people are better off vaccinated if they get ill than those who aren't. It's not particularly difficult data to digest which is why it's so bewildering. People who choose obstinance over the science whether it's because of politics or <insert some other fear based non science driven explanation here> deserved to be mocked. Sorry, not sorry if you fall into that category.

I generally agree with your catch-all disclosure at the end.
 
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#15,102
#15,102
Septic said:
Cite your source or gtfo.

I've asked you once and you fell flat on your face by quoting Biden who didn't say anything close to what you're asserting.

Stop moving the goal posts - who specifically said that taking vaccines will prevent transmission?
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Moving the goalposts? That’s rich. That’s all the “experts” have done in the last 23 months. But it’s been in the name of “changing science”, i.e. we were f***ing wrong. The hospital’s have not been overrun in masse as they’ve predicted, 50.2M people at minimum have survived it, masks have done absolutely nothing in any setting to control it, it would’ve taken 5 years to kill the 2M people the initial models predicted (even without a vaccine), it doesn’t live on your grocery sack, you don’t run the risk of contracting passing someone in the park and myriad of other things. Let’s combat Covid by dropping 10k tons of excess weight around the country and we’ll see that we have just another coronavirus in the lineup of a slew of others.
 
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#15,103
#15,103
AthensVol2007 said:
Moving the goalposts? That’s rich. That’s all the “experts” have done in the last 23 months. But it’s been in the name of “changing science”, i.e. we were f***ing wrong. The hospital’s have not been overrun in masse as they’ve predicted, 50.2M people at minimum have survived it, masks have done absolutely nothing in any setting to control it, it would’ve taken 5 years to kill the 2M people the initial models predicted (even without a vaccine), it doesn’t live on your grocery sack, you don’t run the risk of contracting passing someone in the park and myriad of other things. Let’s combat Covid by dropping 10k tons of excess weight around the country and we’ll see that we have just another coronavirus in the lineup of a slew of others.
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The hospitals HAVE been overrun at virus peaks.

The model projections have been altered by preventive techniques and vaccines.

800,000 Americans have died of it. I get that you think it could have been worse and I do believe that in some respects the fear facrotnhas been exaggerated. But you are now on the flip side overly minimizing it.
 
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#15,104
#15,104
Septic said:
I don't give a rip about the sheep/compliance trope that's been foisted. I can see the data and understand that people are better off vaccinated if they get ill than those who aren't. It's not particularly difficult data to digest which is why it's so bewildering. People who choose obstinance over the science whether it's because of politics or <insert some other fear based non science driven explanation here> deserved to be mocked. Sorry, not sorry if you fall into that category.

I generally agree with your catch-all disclosure at the end.
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I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying. It would seem, though, that the people that benefit the most from the vaccine would be the elderly and immune compromised. The people in their 30’s and 40’s that get sick and die from the virus are pretty rare. I think it should be strongly encouraged for people to get vaccinated, but by no means forced.
 
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#15,105
#15,105
davethevol said:
I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying. It would seem, though, that the people that benefit the most from the vaccine would be the elderly and immune compromised. The people in their 30’s and 40’s that get sick and die from the virus are pretty rare. I think it should be strongly encouraged for people to get vaccinated, but by no means forced.
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Should a private employer be allowed to opt to require vaccinations?
 
#15,107
#15,107
davethevol said:
I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying. It would seem, though, that the people that benefit the most from the vaccine would be the elderly and immune compromised. The people in their 30’s and 40’s that get sick and die from the virus are pretty rare. I think it should be strongly encouraged for people to get vaccinated, but by no means forced.
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Piggybacking on your point of benefits for the elderly and immunocompromised

If you haven't read through this, you should consider it.

Barrington Declaration

Despite it being an appeal to authority, it's hard not to come away not agreeing with the common sense approach posited by the scientists and physicians that were instrumental in penning it.
 
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#15,108
#15,108
lawgator1 said:
The hospitals HAVE been overrun at virus peaks.

The model projections have been altered by preventive techniques and vaccines.

800,000 Americans have died of it. I get that you think it could have been worse and I do believe that in some respects the fear facrotnhas been exaggerated. But you are now on the flip side overly minimizing it.
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So what's the death rate from Omicron? If the infection rate holds the entire planet will have been infected in some 70 days or so... you should be climbing over bodies by now.

"in some respects" LOL
 
#15,110
#15,110
Septic said:
I don't give a rip about the sheep/compliance trope that's been foisted. I can see the data and understand that people are better off vaccinated if they get ill than those who aren't. It's not particularly difficult data to digest which is why it's so bewildering. People who choose obstinance over the science whether it's because of politics or <insert some other fear based non science driven explanation here> deserved to be mocked. Sorry, not sorry if you fall into that category.

I generally agree with your catch-all disclosure at the end.
Click to expand...
Then why are the deaths up Y o Y? It’s an honest question and I’d love to see an answer. The vulnerable pool of candidates for death is infinitely smaller for multiple reasons; vaccination (which we didn’t have prior), higher levels of natural immunity from infection and the most vulnerable who we lost prior to the vaccine. So are you suggesting that the only people (or overwhelming amount) dying in droves in 2021 are the unvaccinated, non-prior infection, not already dead population? That’s a very small subset to account for more deaths than an entire country of unvaccinated individuals in the 12 months prior.
 
#15,112
#15,112
AthensVol2007 said:
Then why are the deaths up Y o Y? It’s an honest question and I’d love to see an answer. The vulnerable pool of candidates for death is infinitely smaller for multiple reasons; vaccination (which we didn’t have prior), higher levels of natural immunity from infection and the most vulnerable who we lost prior to the vaccine. So are you suggesting that the only people (or overwhelming amount) dying in droves in 2021 are the unvaccinated, non-prior infection, not already dead population? That’s a very small subset to account for more deaths than an entire country of unvaccinated individuals in the 12 months prior.
Click to expand...

Aside from the delta variant being worse than the Apha, perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining the correlation or causation of the highest vaccinated state (Vermont) having the lowest death rate while the highest death rate (Mississippi) having one of the lowest vaccination rates.

As noted, the delta variant was considerably worse than that of the Alpha strain as it took down much younger people.

Anyhow. The data is clear to every rational person, the vaccine keeps those that acquire the virus from dying at the same rate as those that are unvaccinated. Bitch and moan about mandates, unknown longtime safety but this point is not debatable.

uk-death-rates.png

Source: “COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report – week 38,” Public Health England; Death rates for fully vaccinated versus unvaccinated individuals in the U.K. for Aug. 23 through Sept. 19, 2021.
 
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#15,114
#15,114
VolStrom said:
I heard some talking head doctor say today that so far there has only been a single death from the Omicron variant in the US and that was a 50 YO male with other health problems. Sounds like this is a big nothing burger to me.
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Vax status?
 
#15,117
#15,117
Septic said:
I don't give a rip about the sheep/compliance trope that's been foisted. I can see the data and understand that people are better off vaccinated if they get ill than those who aren't. It's not particularly difficult data to digest which is why it's so bewildering. People who choose obstinance over the science whether it's because of politics or <insert some other fear based non science driven explanation here> deserved to be mocked. Sorry, not sorry if you fall into that category.

I generally agree with your catch-all disclosure at the end.
Click to expand...
Now do any number of other risk factors and peoples obstinance. Again it seems like you only care they people took one, very specific, measure against Covid.

Instead of it being a general health related issue you take, or people generally not following their doctors health advice, you instead focus solely on vaccine obstinance.

That clearly means you are taking some particular focus to the acceptance, if you dont like the word compliance, of the vaccine.

If anyone at all presented actual data and metrics, things included in science, you could reasonably make a vaccine centric argument.

Right now, literally the only thing getting preached is the vaccine. See below, and tell me which the language being used by society, including the CDC, says is safe.

85 years old, smoker, diabetic, overweight, and high blood pressure, triple vaxxed for at least 3 weeks.

23, stays active, and is weight conscience. Unvaxxed.

The second is considered "unsafe" but any honest look at the data is going to say the 85 yo is going to have it worse than the 23yo. But the CDC only cares about that last check box. You are mocking solely on that last check box. What else should I call that type of thinking besides "compliance"? What other metric are you, or them, using?

And for the record cause I know it will get tossed out otherwise, I support the vaccines, and believe they are safe.
 
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#15,119
#15,119
LouderVol said:
Now do any number of other risk factors and peoples obstinance. Again it seems like you only care they people took one, very specific, measure against Covid.

Instead of it being a general health related issue you take, or people generally not following their doctors health advice, you instead focus solely on vaccine obstinance.

That clearly means you are taking some particular focus to the acceptance, if you dont like the word compliance, of the vaccine.

If anyone at all presented actual data and metrics, things included in science, you could reasonably make a vaccine centric argument.

Right now, literally the only thing getting preached is the vaccine. See below, and tell me which the language being used by society, including the CDC, says is safe.

85 years old, smoker, diabetic, overweight, and high blood pressure, triple vaxxed for at least 3 weeks.

23, stays active, and is weight conscience. Unvaxxed.

The second is considered "unsafe" but any honest look at the data is going to say the 85 yo is going to have it worse than the 23yo. But the CDC only cares about that last check box. You are mocking solely on that last check box. What else should I call that type of thinking besides "compliance"? What other metric are you, or them, using?

And for the record cause I know it will get tossed out otherwise, I support the vaccines, and believe they are safe.
Click to expand...

ok
 
#15,123
#15,123
AthensVol2007 said:
Then why are the deaths up Y o Y? It’s an honest question and I’d love to see an answer. The vulnerable pool of candidates for death is infinitely smaller for multiple reasons; vaccination (which we didn’t have prior), higher levels of natural immunity from infection and the most vulnerable who we lost prior to the vaccine. So are you suggesting that the only people (or overwhelming amount) dying in droves in 2021 are the unvaccinated, non-prior infection, not already dead population? That’s a very small subset to account for more deaths than an entire country of unvaccinated individuals in the 12 months prior.
Click to expand...

The 1st COVID death in the US wasn't until March 2020 I believe. So you can't compare Y o Y when it hasn't been a full 2 years since the first death. Considering COVID had yet to wreak havoc on many states through the end of April 2020, it would be more accurate to compare around May 1 2020 to May 1 2022.

It's been roughly 8-9 months since vaccinations really started ramping up. I think you'll find the COVID death rate since roughly April/May of this year has been significantly lower than the previous 6-7 months prior to that.

And as mentioned, the death rate among the vaccinated to non-vaccinated speaks for itself.
 
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