Vaccine or not?

#15,127
#15,127
lawgator1 said:
The hospitals HAVE been overrun at virus peaks.

The model projections have been altered by preventive techniques and vaccines.

800,000 Americans have died of it. I get that you think it could have been worse and I do believe that in some respects the fear facrotnhas been exaggerated. But you are now on the flip side overly minimizing it.
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This is a great take.
 
#15,128
#15,128
lawgator1 said:
The hospitals HAVE been overrun at virus peaks.

The model projections have been altered by preventive techniques and vaccines.

800,000 Americans have died of it. I get that you think it could have been worse and I do believe that in some respects the fear facrotnhas been exaggerated. But you are now on the flip side overly minimizing it.
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People were able to be labeled Covid deaths WITHOUT an accompanying test to confirm it; if it was believed to be Covid related they could mark it on the death certificate.

From a CDC memo:
Should “COVID-19” be reported on the death certificate only with a confirmed test?

COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death. Certifiers should include as much detail as possible based on their knowledge of the case, medical records, laboratory testing, etc. If the decedent had other chronic conditions such as COPD or asthma that may have also contributed, these conditions can be reported in Part II.


Will COVID-19 be the underlying cause?

The underlying cause depends upon what and where conditions are reported on the death certificate. However, the rules for coding and selection of the underlying cause of death are expected to result in COVID- 19 being the underlying cause more often than not.

Even in the middle of August at the height of FL’s wave the counties out of ICU beds were predominantly the Big Bend and central Panhandle counties who don’t have large hospitals and likely only have a handful of ICU beds to begin with. FL doctors are on record of saying their ICU beds typically operate at 92% capacity and on August 13th,
FL hospitals ICU beds were at 90% capacity. Now I won’t argue they didn’t have the personnel to care for all of them but that’s a shortage that we had before Covid and was magnified by nurses leaving for travel jobs, getting out of the workforce, etc. 18% of health care workers have quit since Feb 2020. Reasons cited for quitting: 50% respondents cited found a better opportunity, 50% cited looking for more pay/benefits, 23% cited caregiving responsibilities (undoubtedly child-care). The closing of schools and childcare facilities had unintended and dire consequences on the healthcare system, leading to burnt out staff and probable slippage in care administered.
 
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#15,131
#15,131
Septic said:
No, but the numbers suggest he'd have had a significantly better chance.

No do overs.
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Didn't you only get the vaccine, so you could travel to the Caribbean last winter/spring for vacation? I'm not anti-vax and have had 3 of the jabs so far, but you seem to be especially promoting the vaccine more than your normal libertarian self would?
 
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#15,132
#15,132
VolStrom said:
Didn't you only get the vaccine, so you could travel to the Caribbean last winter/spring for vacation? I'm not anti-vax and have had 3 of the jabs so far, but you seem to be especially promoting the vaccine more than your normal libertarian self would?
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He argues to argue. I'm not really convinced he is as provax as he has been saying as of late.
 
#15,133
#15,133
VolStrom said:
Didn't you only get the vaccine, so you could travel to the Caribbean last winter/spring for vacation? I'm not anti-vax and have had 3 of the jabs so far, but you seem to be especially promoting the vaccine more than your normal libertarian self would?
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It's what initially expedited my decision yes. It wasn't long after that that the data would have convinced me of it's safety and effectiveness.

My political beliefs have nothing to do with my understanding of the data that supports the effectiveness of better outcomes.

I don't support any government requirements and absolutely believe people should have the ability to make their own decisions, as dumb as they might be.
 
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#15,135
#15,135
Jxn Vol said:
So do we have to allow the double jabbers back into the unvaccinated club?

I feel like there needs to be an initiation or something.
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Yes, that's the case! I guess we can welcome them back with open arms.

Soon it'll be the triple jabbers too.
 
#15,139
#15,139
Septic said:
Aside from the delta variant being worse than the Apha, perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining the correlation or causation of the highest vaccinated state (Vermont) having the lowest death rate while the highest death rate (Mississippi) having one of the lowest vaccination rates.

As noted, the delta variant was considerably worse than that of the Alpha strain as it took down much younger people.

Anyhow. The data is clear to every rational person, the vaccine keeps those that acquire the virus from dying at the same rate as those that are unvaccinated. Bitch and moan about mandates, unknown longtime safety but this point is not debatable.

uk-death-rates.png

Source: “COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report – week 38,” Public Health England; Death rates for fully vaccinated versus unvaccinated individuals in the U.K. for Aug. 23 through Sept. 19, 2021.
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Vermont also has the 4th lowest diabetes rate in the country and 5th lowest obesity rate in the country, Mississippi leads in both. Those are the two leading, most cross-cutting underlying conditions associated with increased risk of hospitalization and death. It’s not simply because Mississippian’s are unvaccinated; it’s because they’re unvaccinated while at the same time being morbidly unhealthy. We’re in agreement they should be vaccinated DUE to their underlying health. Again, if you’re relatively young, absent underlying conditions and are in overall good health, your risk of death is minimal to start with (the chart cited) confirms that in the younger demographics. You’re being purposefully omitting, if you don’t couple the hospitalization and death rates with the accompanying age and comorbidity factors.
 
#15,140
#15,140
AthensVol2007 said:
Vermont also has the 4th lowest diabetes rate in the country and 5th lowest obesity rate in the country, Mississippi leads in both. Those are the two leading, most cross-cutting underlying conditions associated with increased risk of hospitalization and death. It’s not simply because Mississippian’s are unvaccinated; it’s because they’re unvaccinated while at the same time being morbidly unhealthy. We’re in agreement they should be vaccinated DUE to their underlying health. Again, if you’re relatively young, absent underlying conditions and are in overall good health, your risk of death is minimal to start with (the chart cited) confirms that in the younger demographics. You’re being purposefully omitting, if you don’t couple the hospitalization and death rates with the accompanying age and comorbidity factors.
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Vaccinated people fair better after getting Covid, I'm glad we could agree.
 
#15,142
#15,142
Carp said:
The 1st COVID death in the US wasn't until March 2020 I believe. So you can't compare Y o Y when it hasn't been a full 2 years since the first death. Considering COVID had yet to wreak havoc on many states through the end of April 2020, it would be more accurate to compare around May 1 2020 to May 1 2022.

It's been roughly 8-9 months since vaccinations really started ramping up. I think you'll find the COVID death rate since roughly April/May of this year has been significantly lower than the previous 6-7 months prior to that.

And as mentioned, the death rate among the vaccinated to non-vaccinated speaks for itself.
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The first confirmed Covid death was Feb 26,
2020. From Feb 26, 2020 - Dec 21 2020 there were 310,962 deaths. From Feb 26, 2021 - Dec 21, 2021 (today) there have been 306,651 deaths. One of those windows had a vaccine the other didn’t. By the end of February, just about anyone was eligible for the vaccine; my administrative assistant is 22 years old and she got it February/early March.
 
#15,144
#15,144
VolStrom said:
You're not part of the "club" unless you've gotten the booster. You get extra points if you started with the Moderna vax and got a Pfizer booster or visa versa.
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Got my booster.

Team Pfizer.

No third eye yet.
 
#15,145
#15,145
Septic said:
Vaccinated people fair better after getting Covid, I'm glad we could agree.
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If you’re built like a basketball with legs, then yes. If you have failing kidney or pancreas, then yes.

Side note, found the stat below on the CDC’s website and it’s eye-popping. For all the anecdotal stories of younger people dying with no previously known underlying conditions how many could’ve potentially been diabetic and not known it. 34M is 10% of our population and of that 34M, 7M don’t even realize they’re a walking time bomb.

Diabetes by the Numbers
  • 34.2 million US adults have diabetes, and 1 in 5 of them don’t know they have it.
 
#15,148
#15,148
Septic said:
Cite your source or gtfo.

I've asked you once and you fell flat on your face by quoting Biden who didn't say anything close to what you're asserting.

Stop moving the goal posts - who specifically said that taking vaccines will prevent transmission?
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“When people are vaccinated or tested, they're much less likely to get sick and less likely to spread it to others," the president said in addressing the nation from the White House’s State Dining Room.
—Joe Biden 12/21/21

“My administration has put them in place not to control your life, but to save your life and the lives of others."
— Joe Biden 12/21/21

Is that still my personal inference of Biden’s view or is today’s statement explicit enough?
 
#15,149
#15,149
AthensVol2007 said:
“When people are vaccinated or tested, they're much less likely to get sick and less likely to spread it to others," the president said in addressing the nation from the White House’s State Dining Room.
—Joe Biden 12/21/21

“My administration has put them in place not to control your life, but to save your life and the lives of others."
— Joe Biden 12/21/21

Is that still my personal inference of Biden’s view or is today’s statement explicit enough?
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Prevent does not equal "less likely." If you claimed he said prevent then you are wrong.
 
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#15,150
#15,150
volfanhill said:
Prevent does not equal "less likely." If you claimed he said prevent then you are wrong.
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I never claimed he said “prevents”. The argument was transmission mitigation vs. hospitalization overruns, as to why Biden is pushing the vaccine. I claimed that he believes it has an impact on transmission and I was told thats not what his words have implied, that’s only how I interpreted them. These statements today says otherwise on his thought process behind pushing the vaccine.

The CDC has said Delta can be spread at the same rate by the vaccinated and unvaccinated who show symptoms. If we’re to believe that Omicron is more contagious and avoids the vaccines then where would the less likeliness in transmission come from?
 
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