Vaccine or not?

[Vol8188]

I won't hammer you on this one, read my response and feel free to edit this post. You're going to want it back.

What do you think you can possibly hammer me on? It seems you’re proving me right. 14k reported deaths nearly two months ago should be around 18k today?

 

[FLVOL69]

rasputin_vol-VN@yahoo.com

Sent

 

[Septic]

We can get to all of that but not until you’re honest with the first part. Do we agree 18k is likely the number reported given your own source claims 14k by early November? So nearly 2 months later, is it likely around 18k as I stated?

If you continue to pretend I’m lying about that, it’s hard to move on to the question of how many reported were primarily caused by the vaccine

Dude.

You aren't understanding what that paragraph says.

"As of Nov. 2, people have reported to VAERS 14,506 deaths that occurred sometime after COVID-19 vaccination. Doctors at the CDC review each reported death, looking at death certificates, autopsy and medical records. Additional CDC vaccine safety monitoring systems such as the National Healthcare Safety Network, Vaccine Safety Datalink, Clinical Immununization Safety Assessment Project and FDA's vaccine safety reporting systems are then used to provide more rigorous scientific investigation of potential adverse events. The true number of deaths currently attributed to COVID-19 vaccines in detailed scientific investigation is quite small. "

It does NOT say that the deaths were attributed to the vaccine. In fact, the last sentence should sum up what the paragraph is attempting to convey.

Slow down, re-read the article - it simply doesn't say what you think it does.

Anyway, I'm not even arguing that there haven't been 20k deaths due to the vaccine as you assert, I'm simply asking you to cite where you came up with that figure. At this point all you've shown me was a far right website that was banned for covid misinformation.

 

[Vol8188]

Dude.

You aren't understanding what that paragraph says.

"As of Nov. 2, people have reported to VAERS 14,506 deaths that occurred sometime after COVID-19 vaccination. Doctors at the CDC review each reported death, looking at death certificates, autopsy and medical records. Additional CDC vaccine safety monitoring systems such as the National Healthcare Safety Network, Vaccine Safety Datalink, Clinical Immununization Safety Assessment Project and FDA's vaccine safety reporting systems are then used to provide more rigorous scientific investigation of potential adverse events. The true number of deaths currently attributed to COVID-19 vaccines in detailed scientific investigation is quite small. "

It does NOT say that the deaths were attributed to the vaccine. In fact, the last sentence should sum up what the paragraph is attempting to convey.

Slow down, re-read the article - it simply doesn't say what you think it does.

Anyway, I'm not even arguing that there haven't been 20k deaths due to the vaccine as you assert, I'm simply asking you to cite where you came up with that figure. At this point all you've shown me was a far right website that was banned for covid misinformation.

Jesus. Idk why you’re making this so difficult. If your own sources say 14k reported, why can we not agree 18k reported nearly two months later is valid? We have to start there before we can discuss the validity of those 18k

 

[Septic]

Jesus. Idk why you’re making this so difficult. If your own sources say 14k reported, why can we not agree 18k reported nearly two months later is valid? We have to start there before we can discuss the validity of those 18k

Because the deaths weren't necessarily due to the vaccine, (stay with me here) - they were simply deaths from people that at some point died after receiving the vaccine, from any cause.

Do yourself a favor and read the actual report scientific study linked at the end of that paragraph. Seriously, do that and come back and explain how the scientific study must be inaccurate - because it's damn sure incongruent with your opinion..

 

[Vol8188]

Because the deaths weren't due to the vaccine, they were simply deaths from people that at some point died after receiving the vaccine, from any cause.

Do yourself a favor and read the actual report linked at the end of the paragraph. Seriously, do that and come back and explain how the scientific study must be inaccurate - because it's damn sure incongruent with your opinion..

We can happily discuss how many of those were due to the vaccine once you stop pretending me saying nearly 20k reported deaths is a lie.

Do we agree nearly 20k deaths have been reported?

If we can’t agree on a basic fact then there’s no way we can continue on to a deeper look at the data

 

[Vol8188]

You’re okay with this in the middle of historically high numbers of people out of the workforce and companies doing everything they can to find employees?

Do you really think this is the right time to force people to take an experimental vaccine with nearly 20k reported deaths?

I’d prefer we have police forces, staffed hospitals, etc

Because the deaths weren't necessarily due to the vaccine, (stay with me here) - they were simply deaths from people that at some point died after receiving the vaccine, from any cause.

Do yourself a favor and read the actual report scientific study linked at the end of that paragraph. Seriously, do that and come back and explain how the scientific study must be inaccurate - because it's damn sure incongruent with your opinion..

That’s my initial claim that lead you down this dishonest rabbit hole. Until you can admit that nearly 20k reported deaths occurred, how can we have any reasonable discussion about how many of those were due to Covid if you are going to pretend they weren’t reported?

So do you agree that I’m correct in my original claim that nearly 20k reported deaths have occurred from the Covid vaccines? If you can’t be honest about that, I’m done.

 

[AshG]

That’s my initial claim that lead you down this dishonest rabbit hole. Until you can admit that nearly 20k reported deaths occurred, how can we have any reasonable discussion about how many of those were due to Covid if you are going to pretend they weren’t reported?

So do you agree that I’m correct in my original claim that nearly 20k reported deaths have occurred from the Covid vaccines? If you can’t be honest about that, I’m done.

20k is still far less than the p < 0.001 threshold.

 

[Vol8188]

20k is still far less than the p < 0.001 threshold.

So we agree roughly 20k have been reported? Yet mainstream outlets ignore that. That’s my first issue.

You’re saying because more than 20m in America have been vaccinated that it’s insignificant? Is that a fair assessment of your claim?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Get vaxxed and boosted, you filthy animals.

"Neutralization of ancestral virus was much higher in infected and vaccinated versus vaccinated only participants but both groups showed a 22-fold escape from vaccine elicited neutralization by the Omicron variant. However, in the previously infected and vaccinated group, the level of residual neutralization of Omicron was similar to the level of neutralization of ancestral virus observed in the vaccination only group. These data support the notion that, provided high neutralization capacity is elicited by vaccination/boosting approaches, reasonable effectiveness against Omicron may be maintained."

Omicron extensively but incompletely escapes Pfizer BNT162b2 neutralization

Yeah I mean after your most recent experiences with the vaccine effectiveness in your own family I absolutely understand why you’re carrying this much water for big pharma now

 

[Septic]

So we agree roughly 20k have been reported? Yet mainstream outlets ignore that. That’s my first issue.

You’re saying because more than 20m in America have been vaccinated that it’s insignificant? Is that a fair assessment of your claim?

No we don't, because youve offered zero evidence that 20k people have died as a result of the vaccine.

As they say, put up or shut up.

 

[MAD]

Antivaxers: Ignore The Sick, Love Only Thyself!

 

[Vol8188]

No we don't, because youve offered zero evidence that 20k people have died as a result of the vaccine.

As they say, put up or shut up.

I never stated that. I said roughly 20k reported deaths.

You yourself showed 14k reported in November.

How can you be this dishonest? It’s insane. You don’t believe 18k deaths have been reported?

 

[Septic]

So we agree roughly 20k have been reported? Yet mainstream outlets ignore that. That’s my first issue.

You’re saying because more than 20m in America have been vaccinated that it’s insignificant? Is that a fair assessment of your claim?

No, what he's saying that even if it were 20k, it's statistically insignificant.

Though it's probably far less than that.

 

[Vol8188]

Antivaxers: Ignore The Sick, Love Only Thyself!

I agree. Vaccine mandates are disgusting and I’m upset that it has lead to another death

 

[Vol8188]

No, what he's saying that even if it were 20k, it's statistically insignificant.

Though it's probably far less than that.

Then you’d have to call a lot of Covid deaths insignificant given p(death from Covid) is below 0.001 for many age groups.

If we are going to misapply statistics, we should at least do it fairly

 

[Septic]

I never stated that. I said roughly 20k reported deaths.

You yourself showed 14k reported in November.

How can you be this dishonest? It’s insane. You don’t believe 18k deaths have been reported?

You tried to attribute the 20k deaths to the vaccine. Are you walking that back now?

Tbh, it still doesn't appear as if you understand what that paragraph stated, or the study that was cited at the end.

You should do that.

 

[Vol8188]

You tried to attribute the 20k deaths to the vaccine. Are you walking that back now?

Tbh, it still doesn't appear as if you understand what that paragraph stated, or the study that was cited at the end.

You should do that.

I directly stated 20k reported deaths. I even quoted myself again for you a couple of minutes ago.

You should try honesty. So do we agree roughly 20k deaths have been reported?

Because you’ve wasted a lot of my time and yours falsely pretending I lied.

 

[AshG]

So we agree roughly 20k have been reported? Yet mainstream outlets ignore that. That’s my first issue.

You’re saying because more than 20m in America have been vaccinated that it’s insignificant? Is that a fair assessment of your claim?

For future reference, at no point does a reply or interaction from me imply agreement or acceptance of your data. To prevent confusion, I will clearly state agreement and acceptance if I do, in fact, agree and accept. You do not have permission to infer acceptance.

 

[VolStrom]

Antivaxers: Ignore The Sick, Love Only Thyself!

So what did they do, tell him to wait in the parking lot for a bed? C'mon man.

 

[Vol8188]

For future reference, at no point does a reply or interaction from me imply agreement or acceptance of your data. To prevent confusion, I will clearly state agreement and acceptance if I do, in fact, agree and accept. You do not have permission to infer acceptance.

That’s why I asked. He’s already provided 14k as of early November so to claim 18k by today have been reported, doesn’t seem crazy to me. But okay…

Do you apply the same to Covid deaths? Meaning since p(death for anyone with Covid under 18)<0.001 than we can agree it’s statistically insignificant?

 

[Vol8188]

So what did they do, tell him to wait in the parking lot for a bed? C'mon man.

The article specifically says “staffing” was the issue too not “lack of beds”. So it’s amazing people still support these mandates

 

[MAD]

That’s my initial claim that lead you down this dishonest rabbit hole. Until you can admit that nearly 20k reported deaths occurred, how can we have any reasonable discussion about how many of those were due to Covid if you are going to pretend they weren’t reported?

So do you agree that I’m correct in my original claim that nearly 20k reported deaths have occurred from the Covid vaccines? If you can’t be honest about that, I’m done.

Disclaimer
VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.
The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.
Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

• Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
• Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
• The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
• VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
• VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

VAERS data available to the public include only the initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which contains data from medical records and corrections reported during follow up are used by the government for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including data consistency, these amended data are not available to the public.

 

[Vol8188]

Disclaimer
VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.
The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.
Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

• Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
• Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
• The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
• VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
• VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

VAERS data available to the public include only the initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which contains data from medical records and corrections reported during follow up are used by the government for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including data consistency, these amended data are not available to the public.

1. Do we agree around 18k deaths have been reported to VAERS?

2. Your last sentence about the amended data not being released should concern you.

3. At no point have I claimed every reported death was 100% due to Covid. But VAERS does admit that historically data is more likely to be underreported rather than over through their system

 

[Vol8188]

Taking my nephew swimming. Will return later tonight to the discussion and should have my laptop at that time