War in Ukraine

What you call "clever phrasing" (simply because you disagree with me) I would call precise language. We aren't saying the same thing, even though you said we were. I disagree that Russia would have been devastated had Putin not stepped into the picture. This trope you run around here that Putin does things for the good of his people/country is just as laughable as claiming that Biden or any US President does things for the good of his country.

I think NATO/the West generally seeks to influence Russia just like they influence Eastern Europe. I don't think anybody would say (well, except maybe you) that NATO outright controls Eastern Europe.
My point about the 1990s era was that Putin was a far better leader than Yeltsin. Nothing more, nothing less. Plus, the West underestimated Putin when he first took control. They had assumed that the hemorrhaging would continue as before with this new young buck, but after a few years realized that the pillaging of Russia was over for them.
 
Most of them are very much anti-Russian, especially the Baltics and Poland. In fact, those nations don't have to be controlled or influenced whatsoever to make them anti-Russian.
Well it is completely understandable why Poland and the Baltics have animosity towards Russia. No one is really disputing that. That is why we need to stay out of there and let the Europeans work it out amongst themselves.
 
My point about the 1990s era was that Putin was a far better leader than Yeltsin. Nothing more, nothing less. Plus, the West underestimated Putin when he first took control. They had assumed that the hemorrhaging would continue as before with this new young buck, but after a few years realized that the pillaging of Russia was over for them.
Why was Putin "better" - because he's the more competent, confident crook?
 
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Best response in the thread. Would have lead to a totally different geopolitical dynamic.
I've said that same thing for the entire thread.

This is a European problem. I got Joe Biden on y azz with these vaccine mandates and doing all kinds of other nonsense right here at home. I don't care what Russia does in Eastern Europe. Neither should you. We've got bigger fish to fry here in America, if you haven't noticed.

Even if Ukraine was in NATO, not our concern. NATO should be disbanded anyways. No need to the US to get entangled in an Article 5 debacle just because of some regional conflicts over there. Ridiculous.

Is that our problem?

I really don't care. I'm just wondering why the US had to jump in it. That was a European problem. We should have let them resolve it.

Yet we can't. That is the problem. The United States is inserting itself in an Eastern European chess game that really should be handled by Europeans. And NATO, at this point, should be disbanded to remove us from any Article 5 responsibilities.
 
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Most of them are very much anti-Russian, especially the Baltics and Poland. In fact, those nations don't have to be controlled or influenced whatsoever to make them anti-Russian.

You underestimate the level of influence Russia has in that region. Poland should be very anti Russian for a lot of obvious reasons
 
These are the morons negotiating and inserting themselves into this conflict. We deserve the leadership we have.

Biden Warns Of "World War" While UK's Truss Says Rostov And Voronezh Are Not Russian | ZeroHedge

According to Russian media, Lavrov questioned whether London recognizes Moscow’s sovereignty over the Rostov and Voronezh Oblasts, in which Truss replied: “[the UK] will never recognize Russia’s sovereignty over these regions.” British Ambassador to Moscow Deborah Bronnert had to embarrassingly intervene and remind Truss that the two oblasts are actually considered Russian territory by London and are not claimed by any other country, including Ukraine.

This embarrassment follows on from Truss saying on January 30 that “we are supplying and offering extra support to our Baltic allies across the Black Sea” – the Baltics and the Black Sea are on the opposite sides of Europe to each other.
 
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History has also proven that most wars are pointless and solve nothing, it's easy to send other men to their deaths if when politicians aren't the ones fighting them. Have we not learned anything from Afghanistan? We cannot get involved in sectarian violence and have any form of success in the long term. Ukraine is a complex nation full of plenty of pro Russian factions and anti Russian factions, they are more than capable of defending themselves. This isn't Russia invading Ethiopia against an enemy that can't defend itself. We cannot afford as a nation to get bogged down in an endless war wasting trillions of dollars with no end game. We are going to solve the friction between Russia and Ukraine. It has existed for centuries. It won't end no matter the outcome of the present escalation. Russia isn't going to steamroll Eastern Europe, that is pure lunacy created by the war hawks to distract from the issues at home. This is a Europe problem that needs to solved with European solutions, not a US problem. WW1 was a century ago and WW2 was 70 years ago, the French and Italians, along with the Germans need to step and drop the excuses of the destruction they suffered during those wars as a reason for the US's needed role militarily. They can sit idly on the side and watch much of Ukraine fall to the Russians or they can get involved outside of a few speeches and summits. Maybe they will be forced into actually doing something or not, either way it should be clear that we cannot fight every issue that pops up in Eastern Europe for them.

All good points.

*sigh*

Feel bad for Ukranians.
 
Ras refuses to understand this. He thinks all the anti russia stances are just because of the US.
To his credit, he actually said the opposite a few posts ago about the Baltics and Poland. However I think he believes anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine is mostly or entirely manufactured. The polling data out of Ukraine would indicate that the country as a whole is an EU-lean. The only part of the country that is solidly pro-Russian are the two eastern provinces they control and Crimea.
 
To his credit, he actually said the opposite a few posts ago about the Baltics and Poland. However I think he believes anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine is mostly or entirely manufactured. The polling data out of Ukraine would indicate that the country as a whole is an EU-lean. The only part of the country that is solidly pro-Russian are the two eastern provinces they control and Crimea.
Yeah I saw that later and edited my post.

They arent really pro Russian to the point of joining Russia. None of them had even proposed a vote of joining Russia before suddenly they just completely organically all on their own without any outside influence declared war on their home nation and found a bunch of modern russian equipment in their mines.

Go back to the Ukraine 1 thread. Find where the refugees from the Donbas region were given the option to go to Ukraine, stay in Donbas, or go to Russia. The vast vast majority chose Ukraine over the other two.
 
Yeah I saw that later and edited my post.

They arent really pro Russian to the point of joining Russia. None of them had even proposed a vote of joining Russia before suddenly they just completely organically all on their own without any outside influence declared war on their home nation and found a bunch of modern russian equipment in their mines.

Go back to the Ukraine 1 thread. Find where the refugees from the Donbas region were given the option to go to Ukraine, stay in Donbas, or go to Russia. The vast vast majority chose Ukraine over the other two.
That makes sense though - those fleeing the conflict in the Donbass are more likely to be anti-Russian, so of course if they flee they are going to go to Ukraine. Most of the people fleeing are ethnic Ukrainians; the ethnic Russians, which make up about 70% of the population there, welcomed the little green men and largely stayed.

I highly doubt a legitimate vote count on the Crimea referendum was 95% in favor or whatever they said it was, but it certainly was pro-Russian. Maybe in the 70% range, and they juiced it to look more convincing. I think Putin does the same thing in Russian general elections - if it was a legitimate vote he'd probably still win, but it would be by less convincing margins and he's afraid that might give momentum to the opposition.
 
Why was Putin "better" - because he's the more competent, confident crook?
At the very least, he did two things. He stopped a lot of the Western lead pillaging of Russian assets and he has gone about to address the issues needed to rebuild the country. Love him or hate him, but the turn around that country has been able to accomplish since 2000 is stellar. Obviously, it isn't perfect. Never made the claim that it was perfect over there.
 
At the very least, he did two things. He stopped a lot of the Western lead pillaging of Russian assets and he has gone about to address he issues needed to restore the country. Love him or hate him, but the turn around that country has been able to accomplish since 2000 is stellar. Obviously, it isn't perfect. Never made the claim that it was perfect over there.
Dude...he stopped it because he stole it. And I get it, you love Putin because you get major schadenfreude on the Western elites. That is hardly a convincing reason, but you do you.

To call him or what he's done "not perfect" is an understatement, to put it mildly. You'd never describe our own government as "not perfect."
 
At the very least, he did two things. He stopped a lot of the Western lead pillaging of Russian assets and he has gone about to address he issues needed to restore the country. Love him or hate him, but the turn around that country has been able to accomplish since 2000 is stellar. Obviously, it isn't perfect. Never made the claim that it was perfect over there.

He just changed who was doing the pillaging from western aligned oligarchs to him and oligarchs friendly to him. Nothing much has changed for the better for the Russian people.
 
He just changed who was doing the pillaging from western aligned oligarchs to him and oligarchs friendly to him. Nothing much has changed for the better for the Russian people.
And where are you getting this information about his alleged pillaging? Is it the same sources that say he has $200 billion net worth?
 
And where are you getting this information about his alleged pillaging? Is it the same sources that say he has $200 billion net worth?
You do know the guys who run the major state-owned corporations are, like, close personal friends and cronies of him, right? It is even more blatant and obvious than the corruption that goes on in our own country. Did you see the Panama Papers, or is that a CIA psy op?

Also, don't spend too much time puffing up his economic management. Putin was a beneficiary of one thing - rising energy prices in the 2000s. That windfall allowed him to skim, pay the right people off, and throw some crumbs to the population. Since about 2009, when oil prices haven't been in a consistent bull market, their economy has really stagnated. Their economy is a one-trick pony that lives and dies with the movement of oil and gas prices.
 
Are we getting close to go time? The Dutch, South Koreans, Japanese, Israelis, Norwegians, and I believe the Australians have all ordered their people out of Ukraine. South Korea I believe went as far as a travel ban to Ukraine. Sergey Lavrov was scheduled to visit Israel next week but that trip has been canceled and comes at a time when new US intelligence says an invasion could start before the end of the Olympics. Biden and other NATO partners held a meeting today discussing the new intelligence.

Also worth mentioning that the DNR has supposedly "found" mass graves, Russia's casus belli for war?
 
That makes sense though - those fleeing the conflict in the Donbass are more likely to be anti-Russian, so of course if they flee they are going to go to Ukraine. Most of the people fleeing are ethnic Ukrainians; the ethnic Russians, which make up about 70% of the population there, welcomed the little green men and largely stayed.

I highly doubt a legitimate vote count on the Crimea referendum was 95% in favor or whatever they said it was, but it certainly was pro-Russian. Maybe in the 70% range, and they juiced it to look more convincing. I think Putin does the same thing in Russian general elections - if it was a legitimate vote he'd probably still win, but it would be by less convincing margins and he's afraid that might give momentum to the opposition.
Literally the only option in the Crimean card was to leave or fill in the blank. People had to write in to stay, with that aforementioned armed little green men standing there watching.

If there was more than 50% support to leave for Russia we would have seen signs before the Russian military showed up and occupied the area.

The timeline just doesnt make sense.

The Russians tried to flip the president, it blew up in their face, and they had to go to option B to grab up what they wanted.
 
And where are you getting this information about his alleged pillaging? Is it the same sources that say he has $200 billion net worth?
What if it's really only 2 billion would that be ok? He has undoubtedly made himself rich off his position, just like the people you take exception to in this country.

How about the fact that he rewrote their Consitution so he could stay in power? That's close to pillaging.

How about that he has replaced the owners of pretty much every major Russian company with his supporters?
 
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