War in Ukraine

[KB5252]

Also, as I mentioned earlier and you still ignore, the leadership in this country right now has no interest in protecting or border. The worry isn't of the US invading Mexico at any point... but the objective is for them to invade us right now. As far as I'm concerned, your analogy about us invading Mexico in recent history is flawed because of the corrupt leadership we have right now.

Corrupt and leadership go hand in hand.

You dismiss the comparison because it refutes your stance. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Let me get this straight. He is both a western puppet which the US has been lying to the world through AND countering the US/Western world with respect to the Poland situation.

Make it make sense.

Yes, both can be true at the same time. He is the puppet that has been enabled so much that he gets ahead of himself and goes off script.

3elenske doesn't realize that he is not the one calling the shots. But because the West has bent over backwards and spoiled this guy, he seems to think that he has all of this leverage. Again, Ngo Dinh Diem... that is who 3elensky is right now. At some point, he is going to wear out his welcome and have these guys turn on him.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I stated we haven't invaded Mexico though their government is corrupt and elements of their military have attacked Americans on US soil multiple times in the past few decades.

None of those things are a lie. It is fact. If you can dispute it go ahead I'll wait.

But we have done it before. Stop saying we never invaded because you know damn well that is 110% false. Just stop.

 

[KB5252]

Yeah... this sounds just like South Vietnam.

Good Lord. Your new nickname is Stretch

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Corrupt and leadership go hand in hand.

I thought we were the Shining City on the Hill? I thought we were exceptional?

You dismiss the comparison because it refutes your stance. Nothing more nothing less.

No, You chose to draw an arbitrary line in time and then say that at this landmark going forward, we never did anything like this to Mexico. And really, even that isn't true because we armed the drug cartels under Obama and created a destabilizing situation with Fast and Furious.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Good Lord. Your new nickname is Stretch

How about Afghan Army? Is that recent enough for you?

 

[Hunerwadel]

Western media propaganda. Are there instances here or there of some troops without winter gear? I'm sure that may be the case. But let's not pretend (or in your case hope) that is the norm.

And you guys will learn the value of retreating. Russia is preserving lives and equipment. Land can be regained at a later time. The Kyiv regime, on the other hand, are suffering ridiculous losses in a vain attempt to hold on to land.

Well it seems Russia has learned the value of retreating. The've been doing it since March Kyiv, Kharkiv, Kherson. Sorry, I mean advancing backwards.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Let me get this straight. He is both a western puppet which the US has been lying to the world through AND countering the US/Western world with respect to the Poland situation.

Make it make sense.

A perfect example was just a few days ago when the Russians and Americans had a meeting in Ankara, Turkiye about Ukraine. Where were the Ukrainian representatives?

Oh, and spare me this nonsense that the media is spewing that the 2 sides didn't talk about Ukraine. GTFOH...

Ukraine has not been sovereign since February 2014... not February 2022.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Yes, both can be true at the same time. He is the puppet that has been enabled so much that he gets ahead of himself and goes off script.

3elenske doesn't realize that he is not the one calling the shots. But because the West has bent over backwards and spoiled this guy, he seems to think that he has all of this leverage. Again, Ngo Dinh Diem... that is who 3elensky is right now. At some point, he is going to wear out his welcome and have these guys turn on him.

So, when he says things you disagree with, he is a Western puppet and when he says things you like, he is going of script by speaking truth to power? Do I have this correct?

 

[NorthDallas40]

You are making it sound like I have been suggesting that Russia planned on capturing Kherson and then retreating later on in some grand scheme/master plan. That is not true.

Call it what you want a special military operation, a conflict, a war whatever. The fact is that obviously, retreating from Kherson was not a desirable decision... but it was the right decision based on the changing landscape. Meanwhile, the Ukrainians have lost tens of thousands trying to hold and defend undefensable positions and have taken huge casualties... which is foolish. Sometimes, retreating is better than standing and fighting to the last man.

No he’s simply stating you’re FOS and deflecting to whatever narrative you can hope to gain traction and somehow justify this Russian fluster cuck. That’s all Moe

 

[NorthDallas40]

A perfect example was just a few days ago when the Russians and Americans had a meeting in Ankara, Turkiye about Ukraine. Where were the Ukrainian representatives?

Oh, and spare me this nonsense that the media is spewing that the 2 sides didn't talk about Ukraine. GTFOH...

Ukraine has not been sovereign since February 2014... not February 2022.

Well that’s definitely Russia’s take on the situation since that’s when they started grabbing land Moe

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

So, when he says things you disagree with, he is a Western puppet and when he says things you like, he is going of script by speaking truth to power? Do I have this correct?

3elensky has gotten me on the wrong side of things a couple of times in this ordeal. So I would say that what you are saying is partially correct. When he said in early February that there was no imminent Russian invasion and told Biden to stop escalating things, I truly did believe him and I am on record as believing him. I didn't think that it was coming.

I'm human. Sorry. But over the long haul if you tally up the right calls I've made based on the evidence provided vs the wrong calls, I'm likely above 80%. I'm hedging at 80% because I did not believe we would be looking at this conflict lasting until winter.

I'll put my track record against any MFer in here with regards to this conflict or just about anything else.

 

[KB5252]

Yes I did say that. Retreating has value. But I didn't say it was 5D chess or a master plan. The situation came up and that was the move they made... Obviously, they never planned on leaving Kherson.

And yes, you are correct that the numbers were not in their favor in those areas... for now. So instead of keeping men and material there to die, you simply retreat and regroup.

I think you are putting words in my mouth that I never said. The fact is that Russia obviously saw this as an unintended perilous situation and chose to pull back and retreat. But again, land can be recaptured. Men and material are harder to replace.

This is bunk, Russia has never valued men over objectives. Russian strategy historically has been to throw men into the fray when possible to overwhelm the enemy.

The fact they retreated tells me they know it wasn't sustainable, just like the Kyiv assault.

Ukraine doesn't have to win, they just have to fight this to a stalemate and make it unsustainable for Russia. In that respect they are winning.... right now.

Russia will throw more civilians into the war of aggression, they have already been careless with many men's lives. The average Russian soldier does not know what he's fighting for. The average Ukraine soldier does, so does the Pole and other Slavs who left home to fight. They know what comes next if Russia is allowed to "reabsorb" all of the states that left them decades ago.

Russia won't win this fight Ras. It isn't what you think it is for the soldiers on the ground in the fight.

It's why we couldn't win Afghanistan, or Iraq. The people fighting for their home land and way of life will always fight harder. Despite what you believe about the backers of this war the reality for those fighting it are of much greater consequence to the outcome.

 

[KB5252]

But we have done it before. Stop saying we never invaded because you know damn well that is 110% false. Just stop.

I'm saying we've been given every reason to but haven't. You made the statement no country would allow that....... Well we have!

 

[KB5252]

I thought we were the Shining City on the Hill? I thought we were exceptional?


No, You chose to draw an arbitrary line in time and then say that at this landmark going forward, we never did anything like this to Mexico. And really, even that isn't true because we armed the drug cartels under Obama and created a destabilizing situation with Fast and Furious.

Let me say this again. You made the distinct and specific assertion that no country would allow a corrupt racketeering country to become a threat on it's doorstep. I gave you a recent example and even bonus for military incursions on US soil with no invasion in kind...................

Then YOU stated, well we did 120 years ago.


120 years ago had nothing to do with what's happening at this point in time right now. Quit trying to deflect, Russia is trying to grab land and destabilize neighbors and instigate as a pretext to military operations. Nothing more, nothing less. His neighbors saw it as a threat and reacted accordingly now you are pretending Russia is victim of a conspiracy they initiated.

 

[KB5252]

How about Afghan Army? Is that recent enough for you?

Forgive me if I don't know where you're going.

We switch to so many different conflicts.......

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

This is bunk, Russia has never valued men over objectives. Russian strategy historically has been to throw men into the fray when possible to overwhelm the enemy.

Possibly true in Soviet era. But for you to say that right now is disingenuous.

The fact they retreated tells me they know it wasn't sustainable, just like the Kyiv assault.

Well you are talking about 2 different things.
First off, the Kyiv assault was clearly meant to scare the Kyiv regime into a diplomatic solution early on. There was no way they were going to really take Kyiv with the number of soldiers they had at the time.

Secondly, you are correct with regards to Kherson... their present situation was unsustainable, so they retreated. Was that part of their original plan? No, it wasn't. Its a bad look from a political and PR perspective. But are wars fought on the ground with men and material or are wars fought with PR victories?

Ukraine doesn't have to win, they just have to fight this to a stalemate and make it unsustainable for Russia. In that respect they are winning.... right now.

That is a perfect outcome for the West and the US, but that is a horrible outcome for Ukraine. You saying this right here shows the exact problem that we have been pointing out at the very beggining. This isn't about Ukrainian soverignty. This is simply about trying to drag Russia into a qugamire and drain resources to weaken them... with Ukrainians being the cannon fodder. This is what you just said.

It's why we couldn't win Afghanistan, or Iraq. The people fighting for their home land and way of life will always fight harder. Despite what you believe about the backers of this war the reality for those fighting it are of much greater consequence to the outcome.

Which explains exactly why Russia will win.. and is winning. Because to them, this is an existential fight for the survival of the Russian Federation. NATO has broken every promise and has agitated The Russian Federation for 30 years and Ukraine represents the red line. They are willing to go as far as necessary. On the other hand, the people in The West funding this war have no real skin in the game other than their rackets and money making MIC schemes.

 

[MontyPython]

I'm human. Sorry. But over the long haul if you tally up the right calls I've made based on the evidence provided vs the wrong calls, I'm likely above 80%. I'm hedging at 80% because I did not believe we would be looking at this conflict lasting until winter.

I'll put my track record against any MFer in here with regards to this conflict or just about anything else.

You're on, Juicebox.

YOU: "Russia winning".

REALITY: Russia has lost 50% of the land they occupied since February. And continue to lose, lose, lose...

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Let me say this again. You made the distinct and specific assertion that no country would allow a corrupt racketeering country to become a threat on it's doorstep. I gave you a recent example and even bonus for military incursions on US soil with no invasion in kind...................

Then YOU stated, well we did 120 years ago.


120 years ago had nothing to do with what's happening at this point in time right now. Quit trying to deflect, Russia is trying to grab land and destabilize neighbors and instigate as a pretext to military operations. Nothing more, nothing less. His neighbors saw it as a threat and reacted accordingly now you are pretending Russia is victim of a conspiracy they initiated.

Yes... a recent example. And I gave you historical context... along with recent examples. You made a general statement by saying "never", and then tried to weasel out by drawing an arbitrary timeline. No matter what you say, the history is still relevant.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Forgive me if I don't know where you're going.

We switch to do many different conflicts.......

Yes because the US gets involved in so many conflicts. That is the point.

 

[LouderVol]

Except they weren't getting whup'd in Kherson. Ukraine was losing a ton of men/machine with very little in territory to show for it. It just became a logistical nightmare for Russia with the possibility of the dam being blown. The juice was no longer worth the squeeze.

As McGregor has pointed out, Russia doesn't value land in war like America does. Land is only valuable if it aids in furthering your war efforts. If Russia has no plans currently to push west along the coast, then holding Kherson is meaningless.

So Russia is abandoning the Odessa- Transnistria bridge? That seems like a pretty solid strategic objective to be dropping.

Link to anything justifying fear of that dam being blown? Ukraine has had other chances to blow dams they never took. Why would they start in Kherson? Seems like they would have hit the first Russian road block. Accepted the stall. Then taken out the dam, and saved their own lives while trapping the Russuans. Instead the Ukrainians hit this road block and just pushed through. So why would they blow the dam? Seems like if they were going to blow the dam they would have done it when Russia announced the retreat and still had significant forces in Kherson to trap.

Something isnt adding up in this Ukrainian strategy you made up.

 

[AM64]

Just sat down to catch up - only six new pages, so I'm guessing WW3 didn't start.

 

[LouderVol]

I thought we were the Shining City on the Hill? I thought we were exceptional?


No, You chose to draw an arbitrary line in time and then say that at this landmark going forward, we never did anything like this to Mexico. And really, even that isn't true because we armed the drug cartels under Obama and created a destabilizing situation with Fast and Furious.

Literally no one in this thread is saying we are exceptional or some city on a hill except for you guys when you need to prop up a straw man to knock down.

 

[AM64]

It's appalling. We are running a deficit to fund a foreign war. Take our tax dollars and then tell us to fend for ourselves. Wake up America.

No we are running a deficit because we keep electing people who use tax revenues to buy votes. We just happen to be spending to help out a country in need - and learning a lot about different warfare and coping in exchange. Clean up all the other wasted spending, and then we can talk about spending to help out a country being invaded by one of our own enemies.

 

[LouderVol]

A perfect example was just a few days ago when the Russians and Americans had a meeting in Ankara, Turkiye about Ukraine. Where were the Ukrainian representatives?

Oh, and spare me this nonsense that the media is spewing that the 2 sides didn't talk about Ukraine. GTFOH...

Ukraine has not been sovereign since February 2014... not February 2022.

Ankara was a meeting about the use of nukes. Why would ukraine be there if they dont have any nukes to use?

What would ukraine possibly add to that conversation? Zelensky gonna roll up and say if you nuke us we will declare war? Going to deploy some super secret gay Satanic Nazi super weapon we havent seen yet?

It was America laying down a red line, if you will, if Russia uses a nuclear weapon. Doesnt matter if it's on Ukraine or not. Nukes arent acceptable.