War in Ukraine

[volgr]

Arguing with most "conservatives" is a zero sum game. Unless one likes being gaslighted, having goalposts moved, and being set up for strawman argument tactics. It's the conservative way.

That isnt just reserved for Conservatives, most debate that way. The leftist way is actually to censor the speaker/speech.

 

[Ashevolle]

That isnt just reserved for Conservatives, most debate that way. The leftist way is actually to censor the speaker/speech.

How so? Or do you consider public shaming censorship?

 

[Burhead]

Brynn needs to stick to cocktail waitressing. Why would Russia want to escalate beyond Ukraine knowing it would mean all out war with the US/Europe?

Because Putin is an aging autocrat who dreams of restoring the greatness of the Russian Empire? I firmly believe he wants to be Vladimir the Great and is willing to risk quite about to do that. He perceives us as weak and not willing to risk a full scale war with him (and I believe we won't). Many did not believe he was going to invade Ukraine at all during the build up and just called it a bluff or training exercises. I've learned now not to consider anything off the table when it comes to Putin.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

Russia combat power declines in Ukraine as war takes toll, U.S. official says

 

[volgr]

Because Putin is an aging autocrat who dreams of restoring the greatness of the Russian Empire? I firmly believe he wants to be Vladimir the Great and is willing to risk quite about to do that. He perceives us as weak and not willing to risk a full scale war with him (and I believe we won't). Many did not believe he was going to invade Ukraine at all during the build up and just called it a bluff or training exercises. I've learned now not to consider anything off the table when it comes to Putin.

He knows his limitations. He knows he would be destroyed if he tries. Invading Ukraine and moving beyond Ukraine are YUGELY different. Not even in the same universe.

 

[volgr]

How so? Or do you consider public shaming censorship?

Public shaming? You sound like a religious nut.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

 

[landscapingvol]

He knows his limitations. He knows he would be destroyed if he tries. Invading Ukraine and moving beyond Ukraine are YUGELY different. Not even in the same universe.

Putin greatly overestimated his military power when he invaded Ukraine, why wouldn't he do it again? I don't think he will but it isn't a certainty imo

 

[OrangeTsar]

Both sides have provoked and both sides have reasonable grievances. To act as though Ukraine was but an innocent victim in this affair is disingenous as well. This is why my position has been for the US to remain neutral in this regional conflict. We have made the situation worse all around, for ourselves, Europe and Ukraine.

Neither side is 100% innocent, true. But history places a heavy burden of blame on the side that actually sends troops across the border first. Ukraine by itself posed zero risk to Russia militarily. And there was no chance that Ukraine’s potential admission to NATO was in any way likely anytime in the near future.

 

[volgr]

Neither side is 100% innocent, true. But history places a heavy burden of blame on the side that actually sends troops across the border first. Ukraine by itself posed zero risk to Russia militarily. And there was no chance that Ukraine’s potential admission to NATO was in any way likely anytime in the near future.

So, if you were an advisor to Putin or any leader, your advice would be to wait until your foe builds up enough strength to become a risk? The US did this with China...hows that working out?

 

[OrangeTsar]

So, if you were an advisor to Putin or any leader, your advice would be to wait until your foe builds up enough strength to become a risk? The US did this with China...hows that working out?

Putin could wait a century. Ukraine would never build up enough “strength” to be a risk to nuclear superpower Russia.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Both sides have provoked and both sides have reasonable grievances. To act as though Ukraine was but an innocent victim in this affair is disingenous as well. This is why my position has been for the US to remain neutral in this regional conflict. We have made the situation worse all around, for ourselves, Europe and Ukraine.

The US cannot remain neutral after we guaranteed their territorial integrity in exchange for their decision to give up their arsenal under prodding from the Clinton administration. The time to be neutral would have been before making that agreement

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Watch the video I posted on the last page.

OK. I watched it. I didn't see anything provocative in that clip. Am I missing something?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I am never going to convince you otherwise so keep on believing whatever helps you sleep at night

You mean the truth?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Was he an independent contractor that put together facebook in memes in 2016 or was his specialty to sow dissent online in forums?

Yes

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

At this point we are wasting our time telling them this. Those of us who have done our proper research into this know you are right here.

All they really have to do is watch the YouTube channels of Patrick Lancaster and Graham Phillips. They can watch the Ukraine on Fire documentary by Oliver Stone and the Donbass documentary by Anne Laure Bonnel. So right there I've provided 4 sources for them. It's up to them to open their minds at this point.

The Victoria Nuland "F- the EU" phone call should be enough evidence.

 

[tvolsfan]

Can’t really see an attack on NATO. We would have seen some buildup, right? I could see more of an escalation in Ukraine.

 

[tvolsfan]

The Victoria Nuland "F- the EU" phone call should be enough evidence.

I’m not really sure you understand what evidence is.

 

[Burhead]

Can’t really see an attack on NATO. We would have seen some buildup, right? I could see more of an escalation in Ukraine.

Doesn't have to be an attack on NATO. If Putin orders the use of chemical weapons that is a game changer and would, I fear, draw a response from the West.

 

[volgr]

Putin could wait a century. Ukraine would never build up enough “strength” to be a risk to nuclear superpower Russia.

The nuke is basically unusable because if they do it they're toast. Having nukes only helps them in a defensive way.

Just waiting from 2014 until 2022 made a huge difference. Waiting even 10 more years for them to possibly join NATO or continue to acquire western weaponery isnt worth it.

 

[volgr]

Doesn't have to be an attack on NATO. If Putin orders the use of chemical weapons that is a game changer and would, I fear, draw a response from the West.

You seem to really be itching for the US to join this.

 

[Burhead]

You seem to really be itching for the US to join this.

I fully support giving Ukraine weapons and intelligence but I don't want Americans to fight and die in Ukraine. I'm not sure how a person can argue that Russia using WMDs isn't a red line that shouldn't be crossed and we have to let Putin know the consequences of that decision.

 

[happy-go_vol]

The America First Movement has a Sean Hannity Problem - Revolver

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The majority of the country didn't to be under the rule of a Putin puppet. They elected a leader that ran on being warmer to the west but he cozied up to Putin. You refuse to acknowledge this and claim the the majority in Ukraine should take a back seat to minority and they should accept a puppet.

Oh, well let me do that right now. I really didn't think it was necessarily relevant to the main issue. Politicians, even in America, campaign on one thing and then when they get in office, do another (GWB promising not to engage in "nation building", Biden promising not to mandate a vaccine). It is very likely that he broke that campaign promise. That still doesn't excuse the US State Department's actions of coordinating a coup on Russia's border. And it doesn't justify the Ukrainian puppet regime to attack for 8 years the breakaway republics that didn't want any part of that debacle and sham.

And how are the internal politics of a small corrupt country in eastern Europe of any concern for us in North America? Only people that have a financial interest over there should care about the internal politics over there (that is a hint, btw).

They chose the west. The evidence is a free Ukraine fighting Russia today. If they didn't mind being under the thumb of Putin there would be no fight right now. They choose to stand up to Putin and didn't for their freedom against the odds. Why can't you acknowledge this irrefutable fact?

The fighting is over several things. 1. the breakaway republics being attacked for 8 years and the Ukrainians ignoring ceasefire agreements, 2. expansion of NATO on to Russia's borders, knowing good and damn well that if the show was on the other foot, that the US would have major issues with China or Russia setting up shop in Cuba, Mexico and Canada (hell, we had a few in here upset about China building a naval base in Equatorial Guinea. And 3. the newly revealed bio labs that are believed to be engaged in producing weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I fully support giving Ukraine weapons and intelligence but I don't want Americans to fight and die in Ukraine. I'm not sure how a person can argue that Russia using WMDs isn't a red line that shouldn't be crossed and we have to let Putin know the consequences of that decision.

At what point are you going to realize that flooding these countries with weapons (like we did in the Middle East) might not be a good idea?

Instead of throwing in weapons and escalating, what about a less hardline form of diplomacy and an effort to de-escalate?