What's best for the future of UT football: Dooley teams win or... (merged)

#226
#226
GahLee said:
Your argument is getting derailed here man...I understand where you were coming from in the OP but now your giving Kiffin credit for basically the entire class...leaving out the best prospect we signed.
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I like Jacques as the top of the class. He was all Vol either way.

I tried a baseball analogy earlier for the credit on this class. That seemed appropriate.

But, you are correct, this class was not the point of the thread.

How will UT deal with mediocrity if Dooley produces it? And, is it better for UT to move on quickly after a couple of bad seasons or prolong the process if Dooley puts up 8 or 9-win seasons?
 
#228
#228
utmba93 said:
Stone was rumored as a silent to CLK.

But giving CDD credit as you noted, of the 25, that CLK: 21, CDD: 4. That's also not taking anything away for those lost.

I agree that CDD and his staff, particularly Thompson and Chaney, did a great job with the save.
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Stone wasnt coming for CLK IMO. Green was.

CDD was handed a turd sandwich and made the best of it. DLine outcome was likely disastrous, however.
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#229
#229
utmba93 said:
I like Jacques as the top of the class. He was all Vol either way.

I tried a baseball analogy earlier for the credit on this class. That seemed appropriate.

But, you are correct, this class was not the point of the thread.

How will UT deal with mediocrity if Dooley produces it? And, is it better for UT to move on quickly after a couple of bad seasons or prolong the process if Dooley puts up 8 or 9-win seasons?
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Smith visited LSU and the new staff had to win him over IIRC...
 
#230
#230
grace2u said:
Interesting, I'll do some research on that and see what I can come up with. It has yet to be seen if he can win championships, but I'm regretting laughing at the Chizik hire right now.

So, you weren't on during the Kiffin hire, where did you stand with him? He didn't have any impressive seasons as a HC and had only been successful as an assistant. What did you think when he was hired?
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Yeah, it's odd. I was on here way back during Fulmer's days, back when I lived in Portland (hence the moniker). My account must have been deleted in the interim, so I started a new one with the same moniker.

When Kiffin was hired, I was on the fence about him (I remember telling my wife, "One way or another, we'll hate this guy in 5 years. Either he'll fail here and he'll get fired, or he'll succeed here and bolt back to the NFL"). But, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, regarding his head coaching record, because the NFL is a higher level of competition than college football and he was coaching the worst franchise with the craziest owner. Pete Carroll wasn't very successful in the NFL, but he was in college, and Kiffin was a Carroll guy. Plus, Kiffin had been as high as O-Coordinator with a great USC team, and he was bringing his dad with him and I knew his dad was a great coach. Even with all of that, I wasn't sure he would have success here.

But, Dooley has none of that going for him. He failed in the WAC. He doesn't have a great staff around him. I really wish that I could find a reason to like this hire, but everything about it screams "Mediocrity" to me.
 
#231
#231
First&Tenn said:
Kiffin was a lottery ticket. We didn't cash in our retirement savings (Fulmer?), we just traded one powerball ticket for another...
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This could be best point in the thread, imo. We didn't get enough time to find out if CLK was a winning ticket before we bought another one. I was a lot more optimistic that he was winning ticket. :hi:
 
#232
#232
utmba93 said:
It was 4-8 at LA Tech, so 5-7 will be an improvement.

5-7 is not a bad prediction for this season. If he follows that with 7-5 in 2011 and then 9-3 in 2012 that the type of trajectory that likely keeps him employed.

Here's how I think that trend continues. From 2013-2015, the Vols get one 10-win season, one with 9 and one with 8 wins. By then, those seasons may feel good enough to continue the Dooley era. I'm really not sure how the years ahead will affect our expectations.

But, is that really what Vol fans should expect from our football program?
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Coach Years Years Games Won Lost Tied Pct
(Student coached teams) 1891-93, 1896-97 5 23 12 11 0 .522
J.A. Pierce 1899-1900 2 14 9 4 1 .654
George Kelley 1901 1 8 3 3 2 .500
H.F. Fisher 1902-03 2 17 10 7 0 .588
S.D. Crawford 1904 1 9 3 5 1 .389
J.D. DePree 1905-06 2 18 4 11 3 .305
George Levene 1907-09 3 28 15 10 3 .589
Andrew A. (Alex) Stone 1910 1 9 3 5 1 .389
Z.G. Clevenger 1911-15 5 43 26 15 2 .628
John R. Bender 1916-20 3 27 18 5 4 .741
M.B. Banks 1921-25 5 45 27 15 3 .633
Robert R. Neyland 1926-34, 36-40, 46-52 21 216 173 31 12 .829
W.H. Britton 1935 1 9 4 5 0 .444
John Barnhill 1941-45 4 39 32 5 2 .846
Harvey Robinson 1953-54 2 21 10 10 1 .500
Bowden Wyatt 1955-62 8 82 49 29 4 .622
Jim McDonald 1963 1 10 5 5 0 .500
Doug Dickey 1964-69 6 65 46 15 4 .738
Bill Battle 1970-76 7 83 59 22 2 .723
Johnny Majors+ 1977-92 16 186 116 62 8 .645
Phillip Fulmer+ 1992-2008 17 204 152 52 0 .745
Lane Kiffin 2009 1 13 7 6 0 .538
Total (21 coaches) 112 1,169 783 333 53 .692

If you want to look since Neyland and 1926 then you have:

Since 1926 - 84 928 653 242 33 .721

The 3 best tenures ever were:
Neyland - .829
Barnhill - .846
Fulmer - .745

If you want to cherry pick those 3 tenures then you have:
Neyland, Barnhill, Fulmer 42 459 357 88 14 .793

So the best ever at UT is .793 which translates to 9.52 wins a year in a 12 year season. Since 1926 UT is .721 which translates to 8.65 wins per year and historically it is .692 which translates to 8.30 wins per year.

Some of you unrealistic peeps might want to end the delusional expectations.
 
#235
#235
First&Tenn said:
I understand your point, but there is a problem with that comparison:

Kiffin was a lottery ticket. We didn't cash in our retirement savings (Fulmer?), we just traded one powerball ticket for another...
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We had much more reason to believe that Kiffin would be a winning ticket than we do with Dooley...

I have a feeling you're going to respond with "yeah, but we can't be sure," which is true, but we can be fairly close...
 
#236
#236
utmba93 said:
This could be best point in the thread, imo. We didn't get enough time to find out if CLK was a winning ticket before we bought another one. I was a lot more optimistic that he was winning ticket. :hi:
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Everyone is more optimistic the first time they buy a lottery ticket.... :)
 
#237
#237
utmba93 said:
Yeh.. I know, but it's like winning you or me back over. We don't really have a choice.

He was just angry for a moment.
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Exactly. Even amid all the uncertainty and him taking visits, I remember that he told some of his friends something like "if you know me, you know where I'll be next year." He recommitted to Tennessee after talking to Dooley on the phone for about 2 minutes, and don't say it's just because Dooley is that good at recruiting...
 
#238
#238
BigPapaVol said:
Stone wasnt coming for CLK IMO. Green was.

CDD was handed a turd sandwich and made the best of it. DLine outcome was likely disastrous, however.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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I'm hoping Chuck Smith is finally the fix to the DLine (especially DT). It's the most optimistic I've been on that count in a while.
 
#239
#239
VKAman said:
We had much more reason to believe that Kiffin would be a winning ticket than we do with Dooley...

I have a feeling you're going to respond with "yeah, but we can't be sure," which is true, but we can be fairly close...
Click to expand...

The we can't be sure argument basically says forget research and historical trends, just get out the phonebook and throw a dart at it.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#240
#240
utmba93 said:
I like Jacques as the top of the class. He was all Vol either way.

I tried a baseball analogy earlier for the credit on this class. That seemed appropriate.

But, you are correct, this class was not the point of the thread.

How will UT deal with mediocrity if Dooley produces it? And, is it better for UT to move on quickly after a couple of bad seasons or prolong the process if Dooley puts up 8 or 9-win seasons?
Click to expand...

When you say 8-9 wins...that is very vague.

If UT wins a few they aren't supposed to but still ends up with 8 wins, it will be seen with more optimism...this is all hypothetical and were going to have to wait a few years before any of this comes to pass.
 
#241
#241
grace2u said:
I'm not really seeing how its that different a scenario. A loser becoming a winner, isn't that exactly what we are talking about?
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No. Brown was the furthest thing from being a loser. He had alot of success at UNC before he got a big job in a major conference where he was expected to compete for championships.
 
#242
#242
VKAman said:
We had much more reason to believe that Kiffin would be a winning ticket than we do with Dooley...

I have a feeling you're going to respond with "yeah, but we can't be sure," which is true, but we can be fairly close...
Click to expand...

More renowned assistant coaches are probably what you are basing your argument on, but Kiffin carried a higher risk of NCAA punishment than a straight-laced southern lawyer.

I still think it's a wash at this point.
 
#243
#243
GahLee said:
When you say 8-9 wins...that is very vague.

If UT wins a few they aren't supposed to but still ends up with 8 wins, it will be seen with more optimism...this is all hypothetical and were going to have to wait a few years before any of this comes to pass.
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He's not talking about this year. And in the future, if 8 wins is more than we are "supposed to" have, then we are in big time trouble...
 
#244
#244
jarvol said:
Coach Years Years Games Won Lost Tied Pct
(Student coached teams) 1891-93, 1896-97 5 23 12 11 0 .522
J.A. Pierce 1899-1900 2 14 9 4 1 .654
George Kelley 1901 1 8 3 3 2 .500
H.F. Fisher 1902-03 2 17 10 7 0 .588
S.D. Crawford 1904 1 9 3 5 1 .389
J.D. DePree 1905-06 2 18 4 11 3 .305
George Levene 1907-09 3 28 15 10 3 .589
Andrew A. (Alex) Stone 1910 1 9 3 5 1 .389
Z.G. Clevenger 1911-15 5 43 26 15 2 .628
John R. Bender 1916-20 3 27 18 5 4 .741
M.B. Banks 1921-25 5 45 27 15 3 .633
Robert R. Neyland 1926-34, 36-40, 46-52 21 216 173 31 12 .829
W.H. Britton 1935 1 9 4 5 0 .444
John Barnhill 1941-45 4 39 32 5 2 .846
Harvey Robinson 1953-54 2 21 10 10 1 .500
Bowden Wyatt 1955-62 8 82 49 29 4 .622
Jim McDonald 1963 1 10 5 5 0 .500
Doug Dickey 1964-69 6 65 46 15 4 .738
Bill Battle 1970-76 7 83 59 22 2 .723
Johnny Majors+ 1977-92 16 186 116 62 8 .645
Phillip Fulmer+ 1992-2008 17 204 152 52 0 .745
Lane Kiffin 2009 1 13 7 6 0 .538
Total (21 coaches) 112 1,169 783 333 53 .692

If you want to look since Neyland and 1926 then you have:

Since 1926 - 84 928 653 242 33 .721

The 3 best tenures ever were:
Neyland - .829
Barnhill - .846
Fulmer - .745

If you want to cherry pick those 3 tenures then you have:
Neyland, Barnhill, Fulmer 42 459 357 88 14 .793

So the best ever at UT is .793 which translates to 9.52 wins a year in a 12 year season. Since 1926 UT is .721 which translates to 8.65 wins per year and historically it is .692 which translates to 8.30 wins per year.

Some of you unrealistic peeps might want to end the delusional expectations.
Click to expand...

Number of games played has changed...your post is deceiving...we are still number 9 on the all-time wins list.
 
#245
#245
First&Tenn said:
More renowned assistant coaches are probably what you are basing your argument on, but Kiffin carried a higher risk of NCAA punishment than a straight-laced southern lawyer.

I still think it's a wash at this point.
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That and the fact that he was coming from the NFL as opposed to Louisiana Tech...

All we had were secondary violations. The NCAA punishment thing is way overblown.
 
#246
#246
GahLee said:
I feel differently, other than the 8 EE's it is Dooley's class.
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You're wrong.

The NSD deadline was bearing down on everyone, including recruits - roster spots were quickly filling up elsewhere, and for all but a few of the recruits we signed, scholly's appeared to be in scarce supply - it wasn't as easy for them to jump ship as some may think.

If nothing else, you can credit X with first drawing, and then maintaining their interest in our program, right up until he left.

Finally, let's say that Hammy had offered to grant a full release to those 8 EE's - all, solely the fruit of X's efforts, and inarguably so - how many of them do you think DD would have convinced to stay?

Now, before you say, "All / most of them!" gently recall that Hammy refused to give them their release. You seem to think that DD was able to salvage them on the basis of his own wit / charm / southern euphamisms / coaching ability / etc., then why wasn't Mike Hamilton express a similiar confidence in his ability to do so, and simply released them?

The East Berliners were happy to be living under communist rule, and had no desire to go elsewhere, whatsoever. What a great mayor for having convinced them to stay. Behind that large retaining wall.
 
#248
#248
oregonvol said:
No. Brown was the furthest thing from being a loser. He had alot of success at UNC before he got a big job in a major conference where he was expected to compete for championships.
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His records were bad at Tulane, mediocre at UNC and good at Texas....


Dooley is effectively this story without the "mediocre at a major conference school" part.

That makes it different, although there are similarities that could be encouraging if you're looking for hope.
 
#249
#249
utmba93 said:
To say that there is some doubt about whether CDD can ever win a championship at UT is a gross understatement.

There's also doubt that he can ever win the SEC East.

Instead, many here and in other UT circles, feel the best he can do is win may 10 games in his third year at UT, but never any more than that. In the meantime, many concede that he will help recruiting, but that he can not recruit as well as CLK and company. So, even his recruiting upside is limited versus the trajectory we were on.

Before anyone starts claiming that I don't want to Vols to win, let me clarify in saying that we all want the Vols to win.

Yet, is winning and restoring 'mediocrity' at UT over the next 6 or 7 years better for the Vols program, or would simply seeing Dooley repeat his LA Tech record at UT over the next two years get a proven coach on the Hill faster?
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Why don't you let CDD coach and recruit a full year. Rainbow club west has some Kiffin knee pads for sale. I hate post like this because you will be happy if we win and say I told you so if we lose. pick a side or GTFO!
 
#250
#250
VKAman said:
He's not talking about this year. And in the future, if 8 wins is more than we are "supposed to" have, then we are in big time trouble...
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A swing and a miss.

I'm talking about beyond this year as well...I'm saying that 8 wins can be looked at in many different lights.

UT wins 8 games, but has losses against UF, UGA, Bama...not so hot.

UT wins 8 games and beats UF and UGA, suddenly the season has a little more optimism to it.
 
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