Year Two: win a bowl game or go sit in the hot seat

[fade route]

I would like to see them improve over the previous guy in year one. Jones didn't but that's not enough to condemn him.

I would like to definitely see improvement in year 2. Considering the youthful talent, even one more win and a bowl game would be acceptable and in my mind "promising".

By year 3, I would like to see the Vols at least in the conversation for the East with a major bowl bid.

This "standard" doesn't really change because there is a very pragmatic, "realistic" reason behind it.

To compete, UT needs out of state talent. Jones did what he needed to do with the '14 class. DD btw did it with the class Kiffin left him. Both scored early recruiting successes. Both have gotten passes of sorts for early results. But to keep the recruiting going, a UT coach MUST show improvement in year 2 and then start competing in year 3. That's the only way to keep the recruits coming.

This goes all the way back to an observation I made during Fulmer's last days. Recruiting was good and kept being "good" even though the team somewhat underperformed and began to slip in the early '00's. Then 2005 happened. The class of 2006 reflected that slip but on paper 2007 looked like a nice recovery. Continued questions about blowout losses and team discipline led to Fulmer's worst recruiting class ever in 2008. Then he was fired.

UT must have results on the field regardless of who the coach is in order to recruit competitively out of state. Tenure and stability... won't replace wins. Promises won't replace wins. UT has to WIN. If a coach isn't winning then UT cannot afford to keep him longer than 3 years... 4 years absolute max. If a UT HC has not won more than 8 games by year 4, he definitely needs to go... and especially if there are blowout losses and 2 or 3 losing records.

Pretty much agree with everything. I would add that if we keep getting scored on in bunches this year, Butch needs to take a long hard look at Jancek and Martinez.

 

[sjt18]

I read it.

It still begs the question: is the conclusion of "hate", as you call it, not a judgment based on perceived performance?

No. You don't know the difference between objectively judging someone a failure and emotionally "hating" them? I'm almost certain you do.

I "judged" Dooley. He failed. I don't hate him or blame every problem since on him.

Again, how is that conclusion irrational? Perhaps you are arguing a question of scale or philosophy (how bad is hate, or, should humans hate at all?), but you confirm the idea that Dooley was judged and found wanting. Again, I don't believe that is irrational, and apparently neither do you.

It is irrational and especially since people seem intent on blaming Dooley as a means of excusing Jones.

I like Jones. I want him to be successful. But he's the UT HC. He knew the problems coming in. Just like Dooley... he OWNS them now. They're his to fix and be accountable for.


You must have never argued with a woman if you don't know the difference between objectively judging a failure and demonizing someone to the point of blaming them for everything. :naughty:

 

[ImportedVoL]

Hate to break it to you people who think we can just fire coaches at will...

But this school needs stability.. regardless of his record this year he will not be in the hot seat.. we can not afford another coaching change. We can not afford to pay another coach to not coach here.. we can't afford the national image that we fire coaches before giving them the proper time to develop a team, because we WILL NOT be able to get any decent coach in here because they all know it will be a death sentence.

So just forget the hot-seat.. CBJ will at least be here long enough to finish out his contract. That's the only way we part ways with him.

 

[Catbone]

He gets 4 years alone just because of the needed stability. We can't afford another coaching change

 

[oregonvol]

But this school needs stability.. regardless of his record this year he will not be in the hot seat.. we can not afford another coaching change. We can not afford to pay another coach to not coach here.. we can't afford the national image that we fire coaches before giving them the proper time to develop a team, because we WILL NOT be able to get any decent coach in here because they all know it will be a death sentence.

...was said, by the media, about Alabama before they hired Nick Saban. Luckily for them, their fans and boosters wanted to actually win.

 

[sjt18]

Pretty much agree with everything. I would add that if we keep getting scored on in bunches this year, Butch needs to take a long hard look at Jancek and Martinez.

That's tough to say. You might could argue that DD would have still been HC had he not had coaching turnover in '11. Of course Jones probably wouldn't do something completely stupid like converting to the 3-3-5 or Bear D like Dooley did.

Jancek and Martinez however do not have the success in the SEC to warrant long leashes. Especially Jancek. I think Martinez is OK as a recruiter and position coach.

 

[DaddyChad]

With the opinion circulating that Butch is overpaid, I think it is time to put down the metric for which Year Two will be judged.

Getting to a bowl game is an absolute minimum. Butch is making big boy dinero and he left wins on the field last year. We can forgive (because look who coached them the year before) but there are six no-brainer wins on our schedule and this team is already more than half his.

With the talent he has brought in, an extra month of practice, and we should absolutely handle any low tier bowl opponent. A 6 - 7 year and I think the heat should be on (and rightly so).

I like Butch, and I like almost everything he has done to date in Orange. At the end of the day though, Ws are the only coin of the realm. I think winning a bowl game is a successful Year Two. *

* (anything above 7-wins and the season is a big success as well, bowl game not included)

I thought Jones made almost toward the bottom of head coaches in the SEC this past year. I also vaguely remember him recruiting a top five class and beating a top ten SEC opponent in his first full season at UT.

What are the six no brainer wins on the schedule?

 

[sjt18]

Hate to break it to you people who think we can just fire coaches at will...

But this school needs stability.. regardless of his record this year he will not be in the hot seat.. we can not afford another coaching change. We can not afford to pay another coach to not coach here.. we can't afford the national image that we fire coaches before giving them the proper time to develop a team, because we WILL NOT be able to get any decent coach in here because they all know it will be a death sentence.

So just forget the hot-seat.. CBJ will at least be here long enough to finish out his contract. That's the only way we part ways with him.

So why again was Dooley fired if the program's greatest need is stability and not excellence from the HC?

 

[sjt18]

He gets 4 years alone just because of the needed stability. We can't afford another coaching change

UT cannot afford to not change coaches if he doesn't make a bowl this year then follows that up with another losing season or 6-7 with a minor bowl berth.

Empty stands. Lost merchandising. Lost TV/Radio interest. These are things UT truly cannot afford.

 

[volstuff37641]

I said nothing about perceived talent levels based on star ratings. Although that does correlate with wins, I am speaking strictly about whether UT will be the Vegas favorite. I don't care about anyone else's opinion, just the opinion of those who put actual $ on the games. 5.5 wins is the over/under whether you like it or not.

so who cares what the dummies in Vagas say's.They don'tplay the game.lol:

 

[Tenacguy50]

Because we'll have a ton of Freshmen and Sophomores starting in the SEC. There's a big difference between that and then adding a whole other class (highly rated) and starting a lot of Juniors and Sophomores.

I want to win 6 games this year and go bowling and get 15 extra practices + more exposure. Winning the bowl game is gravy. Beat USU, Ar St, UTC, Kentucky, Vandy, and one of UF and Mizzou and we'll be on track.

TN wins both games!

 

[oregonvol]

I thought Jones made almost toward the bottom of head coaches in the SEC this past year. I also vaguely remember him recruiting a top five class and beating a top ten SEC opponent in his first full season at UT.

What are the six no brainer wins on the schedule?

Jones actually made near the middle of SEC coaches this past year. Others who made less than him (Freeze, Malzahn, Sumlin) have gotten recent raises based on their superior performances that have put them ahead of him for this year. Nevertheless, if you factor in his buyout, and his signing bonus, UT spent as much on Jones last year as just about any school did on their coach.

Are "no brainer wins" the expectation here? Is our standard for coaching achievement that the guy just needs to win the no brainers and nothing more?

 

[orangeluvr]

He gets at least four years for the simple reason Dooley got three...

That turned out to be three to many !

 

[Volview]

So why again was Dooley fired if the program's greatest need is stability and not excellence from the HC?

The need for stability is what keep Dooley around for an extra year...

 

[Volfan2012]

We'll be the underdog in at least six games we play this season. I don't know about the Missouri game we may be an underdog in that one as well. We have to open the season with wins over Utah State and Arkansas State. Those are must games a loss in either one is disaster. On the road at Oklahoma and then Georgia makes us 2 and 2. Then comes a huge game versus Florida this is a game we need to win it is huge that we get this one. Chattanooga should be an easy win. 4 and 2. Then we head to Ole Miss back home versus Bama 4 and 4. At South Carolina 4 and 5. Then in comes Kentucky and Missouri. We need both of these 6 and 5. Vandy at their place 7 and 5. I see not reason we can't beat one of Missouri or Florida at home. If we do that and take care of the games we should win gets us in a bowl. I am hoping for 4 and 4 SEC wins over Florida, Missouri, Kentucky, and Vandy.

 

[sjt18]

The need for stability is what keep Dooley around for an extra year...

So what you are saying is if Jones at the end of year two has a record equal to or worse than Dooley's then he should be fired? He should ONLY get one more year for the sake of stability?

 

[Boca Vol]

What I've learned in my years here is that most posters don't have standards, but rather a sliding scale, by which no coach can ever really fail, at least until they are about to actually be fired. Remember, the vast majority on here wanted Dooley back after he lost to Kentucky. So, discussions about expectations and hot seats here are rather futile, since, even if Jones were on the hot seat, most would refuse to admit it anyway.

For instance, last year, right before the Vanderbilt game, I asked if we lost the game and missed a bowl, if folks would still say the coaches did a good job for the season. 57% said "No." But, just a couple weeks afterwards I asked if they thought Butch did a good job coaching for the season, over 76% said "Yes!". Talk about a sliding scale! This is why UT is a dream job. Where else can a coach make over 3 million a year, where the fans won't get upset when they fail, but will change their definition of "good" instead?

This is 1000% correct. Just look at what UT fans are now "bragging" about. There's not a bigger accomplishment in college football than never losing 8 games in a season! Who freaking cares how bad a particular team was. "We only lost 7 games that season, but your team lost 8! You guys suck!" LMAO.

I've been following UT football since the late 70's and I had never heard of this "stat" until we started losing 7 games with regularity.

You are spot on that the fans simply change their definition of good. UT went 8-4 in 1994 and it was a down year. Now people will need new shorts if the 2014 Vols make it to a bowl game by beating such powerhouses as:

USU
Ark. St.
UTC
Mizzou
UK
Vandy.

 

[VolForLife83]

I think year three is when things will heat up. He will get 4-5 either way. But by 2016 We should be the team of the east. I know most say 2015 is the year but I think it will be 16.

 

[Jarred Matheney]

So according to you, a "better" coach being paid more should get more time than the coach just fired for failing to win? Usually when you spend more money to "upgrade" a hire... the standard does not GO DOWN.

The irrational hatred against Dooley for simply not being good enough to fix the problems he inherited aside... if Jones W/L record is equal to or worse than Dooley's after 3 years then there is absolutely no question that his future with UT should be looked at.

The problem with Dooley is that Vonn Bell hadn't heard from Tennessee till Butch got here

 

[Jarred Matheney]

1. HE didn't leave any wins on the field last year. Regardless of what is said, the players either outplay or get outplayed, period.
2. He has brought more to this program thus far than any of the previous coaches we've had (including fulmer) back to the majors era.
3. Give him time for goodness sake. We are not there yet so quit having such high expectations. Those wins you speak of as being no-brainers are actually not cupcakes. Maybe they were to the late 90's vols, but we are not them. (Yet)
4. Tennessee recruits itself. Period. Having a bad coach makes or breaks you with a few but having a good one does the same. That said, the man beat USC jr, and was a PLAYER mistake (which happens often to all teams) away from defeating the dogs. To do that with the lack of talent, speed, depth, etc...is say he knows what he's doing.
5. The hot seat talk shouldn't be relevant until year 4 results are available. In any college coaching situation. Fact.
6. Stability! Please make it stop and get on board 100% so we can right the ship. He will be here for a long time if we let him. He's already making leaps and bounds talent wise. Let's get behind him and the big orange and push this thing to the top. GO VOLS!

This. End of thread

 

[ToptheTerrible]

My guess is whomever started this string is in Year Two of education. With that said, I expect this guy should be able to hunt and kill game, cure cancer, and solve the riddle to the meaning of life next year. Too much?

Good grief...

IMO just going to a bowl this year would be a major accomplishment, certainly not a minimum.

 

[daj2576]

No. You don't know the difference between objectively judging someone a failure and emotionally "hating" them? I'm almost certain you do.

I "judged" Dooley. He failed. I don't hate him or blame every problem since on him.

It is irrational and especially since people seem intent on blaming Dooley as a means of excusing Jones.

I like Jones. I want him to be successful. But he's the UT HC. He knew the problems coming in. Just like Dooley... he OWNS them now. They're his to fix and be accountable for.


You must have never argued with a woman if you don't know the difference between objectively judging a failure and demonizing someone to the point of blaming them for everything. :naughty:

I certainly understand the difference with objectivity and subjectivity, which is why I am so perplexed with your argument. You appear to objectively arrive at the same conclusion as those who you subjectively define as emotional simply for their hyperbolic verbiage.

That aside, if you discuss anything with a woman like you do everything on here, I have no doubt you find women difficult to talk to.

 

[1972 Grad]

The problem with Dooley is that Vonn Bell hadn't heard from Tennessee till Butch got here

Vonn Bell tore up his knee this Spring. I doubt that he will be a difference maker this year.

 

[BeattieFeathers]

I think something a lot of people miss is *great* coaches make *great* turnarounds with teams. Coach Saban took an Alabama team just as run in the dirst as our program, and finished 12-2 his second season there. Coaching plays a bigger part in college football than any other sport that I can think of. You evaluate the weaknesses of another team and put your players in a position to capitalize on that with your strengths... Saban is great at this along with other coaches like Gus.

How do we define great? Do we fire butch if he is not great? How many great coaches are there? What ate the chances a great coach would come here? By the way, relative to about a half dozen or so jobs in the sec, the Tennessee job lags behind......

 

[Boca Vol]

I think something a lot of people miss is *great* coaches make *great* turnarounds with teams. Coach Saban took an Alabama team just as run in the dirst as our program, and finished 12-2 his second season there. Coaching plays a bigger part in college football than any other sport that I can think of. You evaluate the weaknesses of another team and put your players in a position to capitalize on that with your strengths... Saban is great at this along with other coaches like Gus.

I think you're even understating that! Don't forget Bama was ranked #1 going into the SEC CG against UF. UF beat them and Bama was sent to the Sugar Bowl.