Buttigieg wants to tax how much you drive

[LouderVol]

Why do bicycles need to be taxed "heavily"? I'm not opposed to bicycles paying a share, say through registration etc. But the real wear and tear on roads/bike paths etc. is from the weight of the vehicle using the road/bike path. Hence, once bikeways are established, maintenance is minimal compared to roads with heavy trucks, etc.

Bike lanes on roads essentially double the maintenance. We tell cities to expect to do at least 25% more maintenance if all they do is stripe lanes. If you have to widen the road, or add any type of barrier it increases real fast.

Depending on the exact conditions adding bike lanes:
1a. Reduces driving surface so the car wear is more concentrated.
1b. Or adds more pavement surface, which has to be vehicle rated.
2. Creates more "intersections", this creates more joints for failure, and increases chances of collisions.
3. If you add physical separation/barriers, you reduce risk of collision but circles back to 1. More area needed. And more material/maintenance on the barrier itself.
4. Further increases imperviable surfaces in the area leading to more storm runoff and associated infrastructure (this is huge in cities).
5. Increases signage, lighting, bike racks. Even just 3 feet of bike lane (one lane bike traffic) adds at least 10% to lighting costs if you adjust the lighting to match the new sizes. All of that needs more maintenance.
6. Depending on the municipality you may have to introduce new road features, speed bumps/tables, separated vehicular turn lanes, stuff like that.
7. Depending on layout you are also likely displacing street parking, which has to end up somewhere.
8. Them you have all the other various street furniture that has to be adjusted, street trees, bus stops, dedicated pedestrian lanes.

You can offset a decent bit of the wear and tear if you also reduce the speed of the cars. 30 in the city is a good number. Small towns should be 25 max, 20 preffered.

 

[VolStrom]

Bike lanes on roads essentially double the maintenance. We tell cities to expect to do at least 25% more maintenance if all they do is stripe lanes. If you have to widen the road, or add any type of barrier it increases real fast.

Depending on the exact conditions adding bike lanes:
1a. Reduces driving surface so the car wear is more concentrated.
1b. Or adds more pavement surface, which has to be vehicle rated.
2. Creates more "intersections", this creates more joints for failure, and increases chances of collisions.
3. If you add physical separation/barriers, you reduce risk of collision but circles back to 1. More area needed. And more material/maintenance on the barrier itself.
4. Further increases imperviable surfaces in the area leading to more storm runoff and associated infrastructure (this is huge in cities).
5. Increases signage, lighting, bike racks. Even just 3 feet of bike lane (one lane bike traffic) adds at least 10% to lighting costs if you adjust the lighting to match the new sizes. All of that needs more maintenance.
6. Depending on the municipality you may have to introduce new road features, speed bumps/tables, separated vehicular turn lanes, stuff like that.
7. Depending on layout you are also likely displacing street parking, which has to end up somewhere.
8. Them you have all the other various street furniture that has to be adjusted, street trees, bus stops, dedicated pedestrian lanes.

You can offset a decent bit of the wear and tear if you also reduce the speed of the cars. 30 in the city is a good number. Small towns should be 25 max, 20 preffered.

Are you the street engineer that lowered the 2 lane highway that connects my neighborhood to the world from 45 mph to 35 mph because a couple of stupid people couldn't figure out how to drive and keep their car tires on pavement?

 

[LouderVol]

Are you the street engineer that lowered the 2 lane highway that connects my neighborhood to the world from 45 mph to 35 mph because a couple of stupid people couldn't figure out how to drive and keep their car tires on pavement?

No, we dont ever design the vehicular paths. We do everything else around it, including the aforementioned bike lanes.

A lot of it is probably driven by the municipality/dot. The city will require some certain type of road through an area, and then the civil has to make that road type "fit" as best as they can. It's backwards from how it should. Study conditions first then design road.

 

[VolStrom]

No, we dont ever design the vehicular paths. We do everything else around it, including the aforementioned bike lanes.

A lot of it is probably driven by the municipality/dot. The city will require some certain type of road through an area, and then the civil has to make that road type "fit" as best as they can. It's backwards from how it should. Study conditions first then design road.

This is an ancient road that was a rural county road until it became "overcome" by the city in the last several years. It now carries probably 10 times the traffic it was designed for and slowing down the speed limit just killed it since the police find it a nice source of revenue.

 

[C-south]

Oregon is a fairly diverse state and yep, we've got some people out there looking to contribute to the organ transplant programs.

They’ve safeguarded those that can’t pump gas and enabled all the druggies. Those organs may not be very good.

 

[VolStrom]

They’ve safeguarded those that can’t pump gas and enabled all the druggies. Those organs may not be very good.

One has to wonder how many people in Oregon are too stupid to pump their own gas?

 

[AM64]

So they have idiots in Oregon too?

94.8% of the population. 2.2% are just comatose or close enough to qualify. 3% are military ... who hope to leave with sanity intact. Rumors are that there actually are some sane and rational people outside the cities, but nobody cares what they think.

 

[Grand Vol]

Oregon is a fairly diverse state and yep, we've got some people out there looking to contribute to the organ transplant programs.

Why are your football fans really polite, but the rest of the population around Portland ****ing idiots?

 

[GoDucks349]

They’ve safeguarded those that can’t pump gas and enabled all the druggies. Those organs may not be very good.

Now that's a well thought out post... LOL

Care to explain what you are talking about.

 

[GoDucks349]

Why are your football fans really polite, but the rest of the population around Portland ****ing idiots?

Well I'll agree with you, the Proud Boys and other conservative idiots are a problem. And yes we have some on the left that are a problem also. These two groups left and right attract headlines and certainly are a very small fraction of the population.

Portland is a beautiful, fun city and a great place to live. I lived there for 12 years and loved it. The polarized population in all of this country today is a ***ing problem. It's time to get back to reality and get away from the fake bs that's divided this country.

Before retiring I traveled this country for 30 years for business visiting 49 state in both rural and urban areas, there isn't a bad place in this country. Great people everywhere you go, kind people everywhere you go.

 

[GoDucks349]

94.8% of the population. 2.2% are just comatose or close enough to qualify. 3% are military ... who hope to leave with sanity intact. Rumors are that there actually are some sane and rational people outside the cities, but nobody cares what they think.

I love the exactness of your numbers, where did those come from? Do you have a source? Or just making stuff up?

I highly doubt that 3% of Oregon's population is in the military. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the highest percentage of ANY state is 1.5% And that is South Carolina. They show Oregon in the 0.9 to 1.1% range.

Demographics of the U.S. Military

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I love the exactness of your numbers, where did those come from? Do you have a source? Or just making stuff up?

I highly doubt that 3% of Oregon's population is in the military. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the highest percentage of ANY state is 1.5% And that is South Carolina. They show Oregon in the 0.9 to 1.1% range.

Demographics of the U.S. Military

Among enlisted recruits vs total population.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I love the exactness of your numbers, where did those come from? Do you have a source? Or just making stuff up?

I highly doubt that 3% of Oregon's population is in the military. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the highest percentage of ANY state is 1.5% And that is South Carolina. They show Oregon in the 0.9 to 1.1% range.

Demographics of the U.S. Military

@AM64 actually lied... it isn't 3%.

Oregon Veterans Demographics and Statistics | LiveStories

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Why are your football fans really polite, but the rest of the population around Portland ****ing idiots?

I went to the game out there when they ran us out of the stadium.... they were nice outside.. but once it started they went full Florida.

 

[Velo Vol]

You can offset a decent bit of the wear and tear if you also reduce the speed of the cars. 30 in the city is a good number.

How does vehicle speed effect wear and tear?

 

[0nelilreb]

Well I'll agree with you, the Proud Boys and other conservative idiots are a problem. And yes we have some on the left that are a problem also. These two groups left and right attract headlines and certainly are a very small fraction of the population.

Portland is a beautiful, fun city and a great place to live. I lived there for 12 years and loved it. The polarized population in all of this country today is a ***ing problem. It's time to get back to reality and get away from the fake bs that's divided this country.

Before retiring I traveled this country for 30 years for business visiting 49 state in both rural and urban areas, there isn't a bad place in this country. Great people everywhere you go, kind people everywhere you go.

While I’d agree with most of this , we will disagree on there not being a bad place in this country . There are places you must have missed . Lol

 

[Grand Vol]

How does vehicle speed effect wear and tear?

Louder will give you a better answer from the engineering side of things, but increased speed = increased force on the roadway. Yeah, tires are moving laterally to the surface for the most part, but there is still a downward energy transfer applied with spinning tires. More velocity means more energy.

Meanwhile, louder thinking of non-engineering terms:

 

[LouderVol]

How does vehicle speed effect wear and tear?

Yes. As does directionality, and how many turns. A slow one way road with very few curb cuts, all things else being equal, will last longest.

Sorry. I read your post wrong.

Friction. It takes more energy for a car to go faster. To do so it needs to push against something else. In this case the road. Faster speed more force.

Think about a gravel road, a fast moving car will sling rocks while a slow one wont. Same thing happens at a different scale/result on the paved surfaces.

 

[Grand Vol]

Yes. As does directionality, and how many turns. A slow one way road with very few curb cuts, all things else being equal, will last longest.

You know what else lasts longer? ****ing dirt roads out here in Oklahoma that aren't labeled on Google Maps...

Bad subject.

 

[LouderVol]

Louder will give you a better answer from the engineering side of things, but increased speed = increased force on the roadway. Yeah, tires are moving laterally to the surface for the most part, but there is still a downward energy transfer applied with spinning tires. More velocity means more energy.

Meanwhile, louder thinking of non-engineering terms:

I dont know the actual engineering speak. I just know enough to dumb it down for me to understand.

 

[Y9 Vol]

Before retiring I traveled this country for 30 years for business visiting 49 state in both rural and urban areas, there isn't a bad place in this country. Great people everywhere you go, kind people everywhere you go.

Was Trump not crucified for this same statement?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Louder will give you a better answer from the engineering side of things, but increased speed = increased force on the roadway. Yeah, tires are moving laterally to the surface for the most part, but there is still a downward energy transfer applied with spinning tires. More velocity means more energy.

Meanwhile, louder thinking of non-engineering terms:

Yes. As does directionality, and how many turns. A slow one way road with very few curb cuts, all things else being equal, will last longest.

Sorry. I read your post wrong.

Friction. It takes more energy for a car to go faster. To do so it needs to push against something else. In this case the road. Faster speed more force.

Think about a gravel road, a fast moving car will sling rocks while a slow one wont. Same thing happens at a different scale/result on the paved surfaces.

It’s friction which Louder said. Which translates to heat. Which accelerates wear and tear.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Was Trump not crucified for this same statement?

Lol i had the same thought on reading it. There are fine people on both sides.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

You know what else lasts longer? ****ing dirt roads out here in Oklahoma that aren't labeled on Google Maps...

Bad subject.

Yeah, but sounds like there's a good story there...

 

[Grand Vol]

It’s friction which Louder said. Which translates to heat. Which accelerates wear and tear.

It's also the energy transferred downward through the tires onto the roadway. Think of a traffic accident at 30 MPH versus one at 70 MPH. Yeah, that's a direct line energy transfer, but the principle applies of the downward energy transfer being far greater because of the increased velocity.

Long story short, we had a half day on such things as part of my accident investigator course. Vehicle weight, velocity and even roadway materials play into this. Think about the screeching sound your vehicle makes on a concrete surface compared to an asphalt roadway. That's actually the energy from your tires being directed back upwards instead of into the material like with asphalt.

Holy ****, I actually an using math to save lives...